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Featured Penal Substitution.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 37818, Jun 4, 2022.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    On what basis can the father forgive sinners apart form Psa? God cannot just hear their cry's and say be forgiven!
     
    #81 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2022
  2. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    No, we must receive jesus as lord thru faith period!
     
    #82 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2022
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. The Son was never separated from the Father. God is immutable.

    Read Psalm 22 as a whole (without extracting verses).

    Jesus and the Father are One. The Godhead (the Father, Son, and Spirit) is One God in three persons.

    Traditional Christianity affirms that the Father, Son, and Spirit are inseparable (they cannot be separated). Not only this, but Psalm 22 (the "Psalm of the Cross") confirms that although forsaken to suffer the Servant is not abandoned by God. This is the crux of the Psalm - the faithfulness of God.
     
    #83 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    On the basis of Christ.

    Man was in bondage to sin and death, under the curse. Christ freed us from those bonds. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Men must repent and believe (men must die to the flesh, die with Christ, be reborn in Christ).
     
    #84 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You know quite well that you don't.
    If you do, you agree that our sins are laid upon (transferred to) Christ, in which case, what on earth are we discussing?
     
    #85 Martin Marprelate, Jun 8, 2022
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins' (Hebrews 9:22)
     
    #86 Martin Marprelate, Jun 8, 2022
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    So that He may be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus (Romans 3:26).
     
    #87 Martin Marprelate, Jun 8, 2022
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Don't bear false witness against other people. It is not right.

    I absolutely agree with those passages. They are essential to understanding the Cross.

    I agree that God laid our sins on Christ. I said that repeatedly and suspect you are asking simply to present me as holding a view that I do not.

    I do not, however, believe that God transfered our sins from us. I believe God laid our iniquitiy ON Christ, that He became a curse for us, that He shared our infirmity.

    I am open to any honest discussion of our disagreements, but the discussion has to be honest.
     
    #88 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But, per Proverbs 17 that would make God unjust and the justifier of sinners.

    In the "classic view" God is just and the justifier of sinners.

    God's proclamation that the soul that sins must die, that it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment, remains immutable. Unlike Penal Substitution Theory, with the classic view God's Word stands.

    God is just. Man must experience the wages of sin, which is death, and then the Judgment. But for the saved the sting of death is removed for there is nothing condemnation in Christ. God will pour His wrath upon the wicked (God is just) but those in Christ are reborn and are not the wicked (God is the justifier of sinners).
     
    #89 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So you agree that Christ is, at present, our Mediator who intercedes on our behalf.

    Good.
     
    #90 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    You are "adding to the scriptures", as jesus plainly stated that he was forsaken by the father!
     
    #91 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2022
  12. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    If there was no Imputation of our sins to Jesus, then we will never get the imputation of his righteousness!
     
    #92 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2022
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    When the father looked upon Jesus while as the sin bearer upon that Cross, treated him as if he was sin incarnated!
     
    #93 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2022
  14. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Where did our deserved wrath for our sins go then?
     
    #94 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2022
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Uh....no. I am saying that Jesus was forsaken and that Psalm 22 prophesized this event.
     
    #95 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is a nonsense question.

    God's wrath abides on the wicked. God is immutable. His wrath does not stop abiding on the wicked. His wrath will be poured out on the wicked at Judgment.
     
    #96 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Forsaken and separated from the father!
     
    #97 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2022
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    where did his wrath towards us as sinners go?
     
    #98 JesusFan, Jun 8, 2022
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Now you are adding to Scripture.
     
    #99 JonC, Jun 8, 2022
  20. unprofitable

    unprofitable Active Member

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    One the one hand you say you do not believe God transferred our sins from us but you do believe God laid our iniquity on Christ. Clarify how this is not the transfer of our sins to Christ?
     
    #100 unprofitable, Jun 8, 2022
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