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Penal Substitution.

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J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
I'm not sure what you're proposing here. Are you suggesting that the Lord Jesus Christ is unnecessary for salvation?
John 3:16. 'For so God loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.' Salvation is only ever through the Lord Jesus Christ. Any other way of salvation is not Christian.
Let's have another look at Leviticus 16 and other relevant verses:
Sixth time.
'Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.'
Here we have the Atonement in type or figure. The sins are placed on the goat and are taken away.

Isaiah 53:5-6. 'The chastisement for our peace was upon Him., and by His stripes [wounds] we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone into his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.'
Here we have the Atonement in prophecy. 700 years before the event, Isaiah reveals that it is actually the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, upon whom our sins will be laid.

1 Peter 2:24. 'Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.'.
And here we have the Atonement presented to us as history. The Lord Jesus has borne the sins, the iniquities of all those whom the father has given Him, upon the cursed cross. He could only have borne those sins in His own body if they were laid or placed upon Him, so we have the prophecies of Leviticus and Isaiah specifically fulfilled in this verse.
To be sure those for whom our Lord died will be brought to faith and repentance in due time, but the cross comes first. for, 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.' 'God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross!'
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On what basis can the father forgive sinners apart form Psa? God cannot just hear their cry's and say be forgiven!
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
No, quite the opposite. I am insisting that Christ is literally our salvation.

I agree with the passages you quote.

I think what you have misunderstood is the meaning of repentance in my post. We must die to the flesh, die with Christ, and be made alive in Him.

You need to be careful in how you present forgiveness. Others may mistake your comments to mean that we no longer need to be forgiven of sins, we no longer need Christ as a mediator.
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No, we must receive jesus as lord thru faith period!
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
JesusFan said:
Jesus experienced hell and separation from the father upon that Cross for our sake!

Your view of the Cross fails the scriptural test!
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No. The Son was never separated from the Father. God is immutable.

Read Psalm 22 as a whole (without extracting verses).

Jesus and the Father are One. The Godhead (the Father, Son, and Spirit) is One God in three persons.

Traditional Christianity affirms that the Father, Son, and Spirit are inseparable (they cannot be separated). Not only this, but Psalm 22 (the "Psalm of the Cross") confirms that although forsaken to suffer the Servant is not abandoned by God. This is the crux of the Psalm - the faithfulness of God.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
JesusFan said:
On what basis can the father forgive sinners apart form Psa? God cannot just hear their cry's and say be forgiven!
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On the basis of Christ.

Man was in bondage to sin and death, under the curse. Christ freed us from those bonds. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Men must repent and believe (men must die to the flesh, die with Christ, be reborn in Christ).
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Martin Marprelate said:
You know quite well that you don't.
If you do, you agree that our sins are laid upon (transferred to) Christ, in which case, what on earth are we discussing?
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Don't bear false witness against other people. It is not right.

I absolutely agree with those passages. They are essential to understanding the Cross.

I agree that God laid our sins on Christ. I said that repeatedly and suspect you are asking simply to present me as holding a view that I do not.

I do not, however, believe that God transfered our sins from us. I believe God laid our iniquitiy ON Christ, that He became a curse for us, that He shared our infirmity.

I am open to any honest discussion of our disagreements, but the discussion has to be honest.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Martin Marprelate said:
So that He may be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus (Romans 3:26).
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But, per Proverbs 17 that would make God unjust and the justifier of sinners.

In the "classic view" God is just and the justifier of sinners.

God's proclamation that the soul that sins must die, that it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment, remains immutable. Unlike Penal Substitution Theory, with the classic view God's Word stands.

God is just. Man must experience the wages of sin, which is death, and then the Judgment. But for the saved the sting of death is removed for there is nothing condemnation in Christ. God will pour His wrath upon the wicked (God is just) but those in Christ are reborn and are not the wicked (God is the justifier of sinners).
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
No. The Son was never separated from the Father. God is immutable.

Read Psalm 22 as a whole (without extracting verses).

Jesus and the Father are One. The Godhead (the Father, Son, and Spirit) is One God in three persons.

Traditional Christianity affirms that the Father, Son, and Spirit are inseparable (they cannot be separated). Not only this, but Psalm 22 (the "Psalm of the Cross") confirms that although forsaken to suffer the Servant is not abandoned by God. This is the crux of the Psalm - the faithfulness of God.
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You are "adding to the scriptures", as jesus plainly stated that he was forsaken by the father!
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
On the basis of Christ.

Man was in bondage to sin and death, under the curse. Christ freed us from those bonds. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Men must repent and believe (men must die to the flesh, die with Christ, be reborn in Christ).
Click to expand...
If there was no Imputation of our sins to Jesus, then we will never get the imputation of his righteousness!
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
Don't bear false witness against other people. It is not right.

I absolutely agree with those passages. They are essential to understanding the Cross.

I agree that God laid our sins on Christ. I said that repeatedly and suspect you are asking simply to present me as holding a view that I do not.

I do not, however, believe that God transfered our sins from us. I believe God laid our iniquitiy ON Christ, that He became a curse for us, that He shared our infirmity.

I am open to any honest discussion of our disagreements, but the discussion has to be honest.
Click to expand...
When the father looked upon Jesus while as the sin bearer upon that Cross, treated him as if he was sin incarnated!
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
But, per Proverbs 17 that would make God unjust and the justifier of sinners.

In the "classic view" God is just and the justifier of sinners.

God's proclamation that the soul that sins must die, that it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment, remains immutable. Unlike Penal Substitution Theory, with the classic view God's Word stands.

God is just. Man must experience the wages of sin, which is death, and then the Judgment. But for the saved the sting of death is removed for there is nothing condemnation in Christ. God will pour His wrath upon the wicked (God is just) but those in Christ are reborn and are not the wicked (God is the justifier of sinners).
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Where did our deserved wrath for our sins go then?
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
JesusFan said:
Where did our deserved wrath for our sins go then?
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This is a nonsense question.

God's wrath abides on the wicked. God is immutable. His wrath does not stop abiding on the wicked. His wrath will be poured out on the wicked at Judgment.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
This is a nonsense question.

God's wrath abides on the wicked. God is immutable. His wrath does not stop abiding on the wicked. His wrath will be poured out on the wicked at Judgment.
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where did his wrath towards us as sinners go?
 
U

unprofitable

Active Member
JonC said:
Don't bear false witness against other people. It is not right.

I absolutely agree with those passages. They are essential to understanding the Cross.

I agree that God laid our sins on Christ. I said that repeatedly and suspect you are asking simply to present me as holding a view that I do not.

I do not, however, believe that God transfered our sins from us. I believe God laid our iniquitiy ON Christ, that He became a curse for us, that He shared our infirmity.

I am open to any honest discussion of our disagreements, but the discussion has to be honest.
Click to expand...


One the one hand you say you do not believe God transferred our sins from us but you do believe God laid our iniquity on Christ. Clarify how this is not the transfer of our sins to Christ?
 
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