Born Dead

[AustinC]

How many times will this poster be allowed to misrepresent me willfully?

Does salvation depend on the person who wills to be saved? Nope. So what is there to boast about.
Does our works of righteousness such as putting our fiath in Christ result in earning our salvation? Nope, all our works of righteousness while dead in our sin, are as filthy rags to God.

Then why do you teach justification and election as man's work of faith, only after God fully evaluates them?
Van, you are so very confused in your theology with many contradictions oozing from your being. Yet, you cannot see the contradictions. Instead, you keep doubling down without understanding what you are doing.
If I were the only one pointing this out, you might have a point, but you are being shown your error by multiple posters, yet you fight against us all. Check yourself, Van.

 

[Van]

LOL to you too. I think most of us know the meaning of 'dead.' It means 'not alive' and 'spiritually dead' means 'spiritually not alive.' It is the Lord Jesus Christ who raises the dead, and that is what John 5:25 says. It does not say that the dead will hear the voice of the preacher, or the priest or the social worker or Uncle Tom Cobley. They will hear the voice of God the Son and those who hear will live because He is able to give life to the dead.

Vanology must redefine word after word to pour the bogus views into scripture. Adoption, Dead, Regeneration, Predestination, Through, etc.

Falselogy on display. John 5:25 says the dead will hear the gospel, proving Falselogy is false doctrine.

Did I write Romans 8:23? Nope. Did I write John 5:25? Nope. Did I write Colossians 1:18? Nope, but the fact is Jesus is the first born from the dead, and therefore the falselogy doctrine that the OT saints were regenerated before Christ died on the cross is invalid. God has predestined two things, that those born anew will be conformed to the image of His Son and those born anew will be redeemed bodily at Christ's second coming. The effort to claim some passage supports God predestining certain individuals for salvation before He credits their faith as righteous faith is hogwash. And of course, if something, say faith, is utilized to bestow blessings such as being chosen for salvation, then that faith existed before the choice.

Thus the lost are born dead, conceived in iniquity, separated from God's holiness, the result of being made sinners (Romans 5:19). However, they can still hear, understand and respond to the gospel, John 5:25.

 

[Van]

Then why do you teach justification and election as man's work of faith, only after God fully evaluates them?
Van, you are so very confused in your theology with many contradictions oozing from your being. Yet, you cannot see the contradictions. Instead, you keep doubling down without understanding what you are doing.
If I were the only one pointing this out, you might have a point, but you are being shown your error by multiple posters, yet you fight against us all. Check yourself, Van.

And why do you post falsehoods concerning my view without any quotes? Where is I says our justification or election results from man's work of faith? Nowhere.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Falselogy on display. John 5:25 says the dead will hear the gospel, proving Falselogy is false doctrine.

This is about the best example of Falselogy [sic] that anyone could ask for. What does John 5:25 actually say?
John 5:25. "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, that the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." So where does it say that the dead will hear the Gospel? It doesn't.. Van has made it up.

Thus the lost are born dead, conceived in iniquity, separated from God's holiness, the result of being made sinners (Romans 5:19). However, they can still hear, understand and respond to the gospel, John 5:25.

Not until and unless they hear the voice of the Son of God, saying, "Lazarus! Come forth!"

'Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all Thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy Name;
But now, as touched by living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from death's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou jhast made the blind to see;
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak;
The dead to live; and lo! I break
The chains of my captivity.'
William Tidd Matson, 1833-99.[/QUOTE]

 

[Alan Gross]

Van, it is by grace you are saved. The through faith is the effect of God giving you faith to believe. Why is it that you refuse to acknowledge that faith is a gracious gift, not something you conjured up?

Faith must have an Object.

For Salvation that Object is Jesus Christ.

Everyone who has been Saved has been Given Faith in The Work and Person of Jesus Christ.

 

[AustinC]

And why do you post falsehoods concerning my view without any quotes? Where is I says our justification or election results from man's work of faith? Nowhere.

You state that election comes after God has reviewed man's faith and then decides whether the man's faith is worthy of declaring him justified. (I summarize as you ramble a lot.)

 

[Van]

You state that election comes after God has reviewed man's faith and then decides whether the man's faith is worthy of declaring him justified. (I summarize as you ramble a lot.)

You are not presenting my words with quotes. Did I say our faith is as filthy rags to God or it was worthy? The Falselogy advocates post non-stop falsehoods to hide truth.

 

[Van]

I see one poster said that the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God does not equate with hearing the gospel message! I kid you not.

In Mark 9:7 we are told to give "constant heed" to His voice. But the poster may be right, the voice of the Son of God, may just be retelling the story of Moby Dick.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I see one poster said that the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God does not equate with hearing the gospel message! I kid you not.

In Mark 9:7 we are told to give "constant heed" to His voice. But the poster may be right, the voice of the Son of God, may just be retelling the story of Moby Dick.

My post was in response to you playing fast and loose with the word of God. You have a strange reluctance to commenting on what's actually written, but prefer to make use of your own 'interpretative translations' which are often products of your own imagination.

Tell me @Van, how much Gospel is there in "Lazarus, come forth!" (John 11:43). What effect did it have? You and I can spend all day at someone's grave, crying out, "Come forth!" But it will have no effect. But if the Lord Jesus Christ were to bid him rise, up he would get.

Mark 1:15. There is the Gospel foor you. To whom was our Lord speaking? To anyone within earshot. It was a general call. Maybe no one came; we don't know. But Come to Luke 5:27-28. 'After this Jesus went out and saw a tax-collector by the name of Levi, sitting by his tax booth. "Follow Me," Jesus said to him, and Levi got up, left everything and followed Him.' Here is the particular call, and Levi responds immediately. The particular call is always successful. Why? Because 'salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne and to the Lamb' (Revelation 7:10).

A man may preach the Gospel faithfully to hundreds, and see no one come to Christ.. It is only when the Lord Jesus Christ puts for His power that a sinner, dead in trespasses and sin, will be brought to new life and come to Him for salvation . Have a read of Luke 5:1-11.

 

[Van]

My post was in response to you playing fast and loose with the word of God. You have a strange reluctance to commenting on what's actually written, but prefer to make use of your own 'interpretative translations' which are often products of your own imagination.

Tell me @Van, how much Gospel is there in "Lazarus, come forth!" (John 11:43). What effect did it have? You and I can spend all day at someone's grave, crying out, "Come forth!" But it will have no effect. But if the Lord Jesus Christ were to bid him rise, up he would get.

Mark 1:15. There is the Gospel foor you. To whom was our Lord speaking? To anyone within earshot. It was a general call. Maybe no one came; we don't know. But Come to Luke 5:27-28. 'After this Jesus went out and saw a tax-collector by the name of Levi, sitting by his tax booth. "Follow Me," Jesus said to him, and Levi got up, left everything and followed Him.' Here is the particular call, and Levi responds immediately. The particular call is always successful. Why? Because 'salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne and to the Lamb' (Revelation 7:10).

A man may preach the Gospel faithfully to hundreds, and see no one come to Christ.. It is only when the Lord Jesus Christ puts for His power that a sinner, dead in trespasses and sin, will be brought to new life and come to Him for salvation . Have a read of Luke 5:1-11.

Your reluctance to address actual biblical doctrine is demonstrated by YOU violating form rules and addessing the poster and not the position. I provide citations for the passages I address, so your charge is without merit, simply an example of vilification.

Note he claims my interpretative translations do not reflect the intended message of God, but somehow he does not indicated where I missed the mark of accuracy. More off-topic obfuscation

We are discussing the metaphorical meaning of draw, but he returns to an illustration of a person literally dead. Yet more obfuscation.. Oh how I wish the Falselogy advocates actually discussed scripture.

Next we get the Falselogy view of Mark 1:15, finding the "general" call rather than the "particular call" (Falselogy code for Irresistible Grace) . And of course neither of these distinctions come from scripture, but reflect Falselogy's rewrite.

Did anyone say salvation does not belong to God? Nope so yet more implied disinformation.

And then the complete subject change, we are discussing (or at least that is my goal) that scripture teaches the dead in sin folks can hear the Son of God, but this post addresses that God alone makes them alive together with Christ.

Lastly the poster reverses the sequence, saying people are "brought to life" then "come to Him for salvation>" He did not say whether "come to Him" refers to trusting in the gospel of Christ, or being placed within Christ"s spiritual body. But the fact is scripture is crystal, we are made alive (from a spiritually dead state) when we are transferred spiritually into Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration.

 

[AustinC]

Your reluctance to address actual biblical doctrine is demonstrated by YOU violating form rules and addessing the poster and not the position. I provide citations for the passages I address, so your charge is without merit, simply an example of vilification.

Note he claims my interpretative translations do not reflect the intended message of God, but somehow he does not indicated where I missed the mark of accuracy. More off-topic obfuscation

We are discussing the metaphorical meaning of draw, but he returns to an illustration of a person literally dead. Yet more obfuscation.. Oh how I wish the Falselogy advocates actually discussed scripture.

Next we get the Falselogy view of Mark 1:15, finding the "general" call rather than the "particular call" (Falselogy code for Irresistible Grace) . And of course neither of these distinctions come from scripture, but reflect Falselogy's rewrite.

Did anyone say salvation does not belong to God? Nope so yet more implied disinformation.

And then the complete subject change, we are discussing (or at least that is my goal) that scripture teaches the dead in sin folks can hear the Son of God, but this post addresses that God alone makes them alive together with Christ.

Lastly the poster reverses the sequence, saying people are "brought to life" then "come to Him for salvation>" He did not say whether "come to Him" refers to trusting in the gospel of Christ, or being placed within Christ"s spiritual body. But the fact is scripture is crystal, we are made alive (from a spiritually dead state) when we are transferred spiritually into Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration.

What actual Bible doctrine do you imagine you have stated?

Is it the unbiblical doctrine that God elect's people only after he has evaluated the worthiness of their personal faith to see if it meets the minimum standards by which he can justify them?

Scripture is crystal clear.
1) We were dead in our trespasses and sins.
2) But God, even while we were dead, made us alive with Christ.
3) By God's grace we have been saved.
4) This gracious salvation is established by a faith that is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God so no one can boast.
5) This act of God seated us in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus.
6) This act of God was done so we might fulfill the good works that God ordained for us to do.

*Ephesians 2:1-10*

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Your reluctance to address actual biblical doctrine is demonstrated by YOU violating form rules and addessing the poster and not the position. I provide citations for the passages I address, so your charge is without merit, simply an example of vilification.

You know perfectly well that you misquoted John 5:25. Whether you did so deliberately in an effort to mislead others or whether it was ignorance, I cannot say, but it doesn't take too much effort to copy and paste the thing from a proper translation.. I have taken the trouble to explain the verse to you, but there are none so blind as those who will not see.

Did anyone say salvation does not belong to God? Nope so yet more implied disinformation.
.

Dis anyone say that anyone said that salvation does not belong to God? Nope, so yet more implied disinformation.

 

[Van]

What actual Bible doctrine do you imagine you have stated?

Is it the unbiblical doctrine that God elect's people only after he has evaluated the worthiness of their personal faith to see if it meets the minimum standards by which he can justify them?

Scripture is crystal clear.
1) We were dead in our trespasses and sins.
2) But God, even while we were dead, made us alive with Christ.
3) By God's grace we have been saved.
4) This gracious salvation is established by a faith that is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God so no one can boast.
5) This act of God seated us in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus.
6) This act of God was done so we might fulfill the good works that God ordained for us to do.

*Ephesians 2:1-10*

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1) I stated what scripture says. I have provided the citations dozens of times.

2) Did any say God evaluates the worthiness of their person faith to see if it means the minimum standards by which He can justify them? Nope - so yet another disinformation posted, posted with impunity.

3) We were spiritually dead (separated from God) in our trespasses and sins. Not at issue so obfuscation

4) God did make us alive together with Christ. Not at issue so more obfuscation

5) By God's grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH11111. (No need to edit out the bone of contention)

6) Our faith existed before we were chosen individually because we were chosen through or by way of our faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. This is one of the biblical truths Falselogy denies.

7) After undergoing the washing of regeneration within Christ's spiritual body, we were then seated in heaven.

8) Our rebirth in Christ was done so that as a new creation created for good works we would carry out Christ's ministry.

 

[Van]

You know perfectly well that you misquoted John 5:25. Whether you did so deliberately in an effort to mislead others or whether it was ignorance, I cannot say, but it doesn't take too much effort to copy and paste the thing from a proper translation.. I have taken the trouble to explain the verse to you, but there are none so blind as those who will not see.

Dis anyone say that anyone said that salvation does not belong to God? Nope, so yet more implied disinformation.

Yet another charge of where I misquoted John 5:25. But no quote?

Falselogy on display. John 5:25 says the dead will hear the gospel, proving Falselogy is false doctrine.

John 5:25
“Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

Last Item I say implied and the poster misrepresented that I said said. And so it goes with the advocates of falsehood.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yet another charge of where I misquoted John 5:25. But no quote?

I quoted it on post #64. Grow up!

 

[Van]

I quoted it on post #64. Grow up!

Here is Van's quote in post #64:

However, they can still hear, understand and respond to the gospel, John 5:25.

And here is the false charge:

You know perfectly well that you misquoted John 5:25.

1) Did I quote John 5:25? Nope so a material false statement by Martin.
2) Did I misrepresent the content of John 5:25? Perhaps, as hearing does not necessarily mean understanding and responding.
However, both understanding and responding are within the semantic range of the word translated hear. Thus to hear is to perceive and hearken, i.e. understand and respond.

Someone seems to throw stones from a glass house

 

[AustinC]

@Van wrote:
"Our faith existed before we were chosen individually because we were chosen through or by way of our faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13."

*2 Thessalonians 2:11-15*

Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Where do we see "by way of our faith in the truth?" This seems like you're using the Vanology translation of the Bible.

Van, your misinterpretation of the text is obvious.

 

[AustinC]

@Van wrote:
"After undergoing the washing of regeneration within Christ's spiritual body, we were then seated in heaven."

Scripture says:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
~ *Ephesians 2:4-7*

Do you see the difference between the text and your Vanology?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Why do you persist in this nonsense? This is from your post #62

Falselogy on display. John 5:25 says the dead will hear the gospel, proving Falselogy is false doctrine.

And this is my reply from post #64.

This is about the best example of Falselogy [sic] that anyone could ask for. What does John 5:25 actually say?
John 5:25. "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, that the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." So where does it say that the dead will hear the Gospel? It doesn't.. Van has made it up.

And you did make it up. You claimed that John 5:25 said something that it doesn't say.

 

[Van]

@Van wrote:

Where do we see "by way of our faith in the truth?" This seems like you're using the Vanology translation of the Bible.

Van, your misinterpretation of the text is obvious.

Taint so insult post addressing me and not the topic.