Conditional election.

[Brightfame52]

No. Not so. My views are explicit. They are being denied by those who find they can't agree with them. By supposing what is not in evidence. Supposing God's choice before the foundation of the world to be the elections.

Huh ? I dont understand a word of this. What point does it make ?

 

[37818]

No!

You are completely missing what Peter is saying.

*2 Peter 1:1,3-11*

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peter is telling us that the election already took place before the foundation of the world. He tells in the previous verses that we have obtained it. We confirm it by the supplements that are added.

Honestly, your assertion is not supported by Peter's teaching. In fact, your assertion is destroyed by Peter's teaching. How have you made this mistake? Have you simply not read the letter?

Not just supplementing, but the need to
practice in order to confirm? That leaves no point of ever knowing.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning

This thread will be closed no sooner than 430 pm EDT / 130 pm PDT

 

[37818]

See, you cant even follow a simple discourse.

You know no such thing.

 

[Silverhair]

You must not be aware of what the doctrines of Grace state, that Christs death and election is limited to some, not all without exception.

I am fully aware of what your DoG states, are you? When you take your DoG to there logical end they is not much grace in them.

Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.

As I have said a number of times your man-made theology is not supported by the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

I say likewise, scripture has showned you in error, grave error at that.

Why do you deny scripture. The bible is clear that man has a free will and yet you deny this because it does not fit with your DoG.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Silverhair]

What I still don't understand is how election 'in time' does not directly contradict Ephesians 1:4 which very plainly states (as does 2 Thessalonians 2:13) that God's election takes place in eternity.

1 Thes. 1:4. 'Knowing brothers, your election by God......' How does Paul know? Because Paul's word to them came with great power through the Holy Spirit, and the faith of the Thessalonians came to them with much assurance (v.5).
2 Peter 1:10. 'Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.' What are 'these things'? They are the things Peter commands in vs. 5-7. How can someone be sure that he is a child of God? Well to be sure, by the witness of the Spirit (Romans 8:16), but it is possible to be deceived in such matters (Matthew 7:21-23). If it is our delight to serve God and to keep His commandments (cf. 1 John 2:3-4) and it upsets us when we fall short, that is a clear sign that the Spirit is working within us and that we are elect.
But none of this contradicts Ephesians 1:4 etc. that believers are the chosen of God from eternity.
I hope that helps, but I don't expect it will.

Martin for a person that says you know the bible you seem to miss quite a bit of it.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2Th 2:14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Context Martin context.
Notice that they are called to believe the truth, they were elect, in time not before. Just as we are told in Ephesians 1:13-14 and again in Romans 10:9-10. How do you keep missing this as it is clear in scripture.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Again Martin context. Who are the "us " of vs 4? We just have to look back to vs 1, they are the saints & faithful ones. They have trusted in Christ Jesus for their salvation. You keep looking for verses that you think support your view and end up missing the truth of the bible.

As you said, I hope that helps, but I don't expect it will.

 

[37818]

What I still don't understand is how election 'in time' does not directly contradict Ephesians 1:4 which very plainly states (as does 2 Thessalonians 2:13) that God's election takes place in eternity.

1 Thes. 1:4. 'Knowing brothers, your election by God......' How does Paul know? Because Paul's word to them came with great power through the Holy Spirit, and the faith of the Thessalonians came to them with much assurance (v.5).
2 Peter 1:10. 'Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.' What are 'these things'? They are the things Peter commands in vs. 5-7. How can someone be sure that he is a child of God? Well to be sure, by the witness of the Spirit (Romans 8:16), but it is possible to be deceived in such matters (Matthew 7:21-23). If it is our delight to serve God and to keep His commandments (cf. 1 John 2:3-4) and it upsets us when we fall short, that is a clear sign that the Spirit is working within us and that we are elect.
But none of this contradicts Ephesians 1:4 etc. that believers are the chosen of God from eternity.
I hope that helps, but I don't expect it will.

We do not know our election until we know we are saved.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We do not know our election until we know we are saved.

Agreed. Paul knew they were saved for the reasons I gave above. What does that have to do with the timing of election?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin for a person that says you know the bible you seem to miss quite a bit of it.

If you are unable to reply to a post without a sneer, I don't think I want to discuss with you. Let's try to treat each other like brothers in Christ.

 

[AustinC]

We do not know our election until we know we are saved.

No kidding, but that does not negate the fact that God's election and choice of us is from before the foundation of the world.
In Isaiah we see God naming Cyrus, far before Cyrus was born, as the one who would allow Judah back to the land.
Another prophet tells us that the Promised One would be named Yeshua. Just because we experience our election in time does not mean our election was not set before the foundation of the world.

 

[AustinC]

Not just supplementing, but the need to
practice in order to confirm? That leaves no point of ever knowing.

Does that bother you? Does it bother you that the confirmation of our election is the perseverance that God accomplishes in us through the faith he gives us?

 

[37818]

Agreed. Paul knew they were saved for the reasons I gave above. What does that have to do with the timing of election?

There are what are defined as three different Greek words. Two singluar nouns and the plural verb. We are nevertheless arguing interpretations.
There are those who insist the plural verb is explicitly included in meaning and time of the singular noun referring to God's act before the foundation of the world.

 

[37818]

Does that bother you? Does it bother you that the confirmation of our election is the perseverance that God accomplishes in us through the faith he gives us?

We do not agree on how God's election is to be understood. But the election is God's not man's.

 

[37818]

Personally I have always believed in a conditional election. What changed was my understanding of notion of the election being before the foundation of the world to the understanding that election itself taking place in time.

 

[37818]

No kidding, but that does not negate the fact that God's election and choice of us is from before the foundation of the world.

Personally I have always believed in a conditional election. What changed was my understanding of notion of the election being before the foundation of the world to the understanding that election itself taking place in time.

 

[Silverhair]

If you are unable to reply to a post without a sneer, I don't think I want to discuss with you. Let's try to treat each other like brothers in Christ.

Martin that was not a sneer just an observation. Were you not the one that said you taught the bible? My observation is that you seem to miss much of what it says as you are looking at it through calvinism. But I do note that you do not respond to the verses I posted you just avoid them.

 

[Silverhair]

Does that bother you? Does it bother you that the confirmation of our election is the perseverance that God accomplishes in us through the faith he gives us?

Austin just continues to read into the text what he needs to find in the hope it will support his calvinist view. The bible does not support it but that does not seem to matter to Austin.

 

[AustinC]

Personally I have always believed in a conditional election. What changed was my understanding of notion of the election being before the foundation of the world to the understanding that election itself taking place in time.

Your post answered absolutely nothing. I take it that you have no tangible support for your opinion and have created it purely because you cannot tolerate God being the sole determiner of eternal life.

 

[37818]

Your post answered absolutely nothing. I take it that you have no tangible support for your opinion and have created it purely because you cannot tolerate God being the sole determiner of eternal life.

1 John 5:9-13.
You do not understand or correctly believe the evidence.