Featured 1 John 2:1-2

1 John 5:9-13, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ."

 

How does one have the Son?
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Belief is the effect of God's grace upon the person dead in sin.

 

Belief is an effect of hearing truth. John 17:17, Romans 10:17. Ephesians 2:5 is explained in Ephesians 2:8. Romans 6:23. 1 John 5:12, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Romans 8:9.

 

So, if one of your "ways of salvation" is impeached,
you just pick another one, as an alternative
and alteration of your primary guess at what salvation is..

I'm done with your Blasphemy on The Atonement.

Start a new thread to Blaspheme REPROBATION.

...
from Brightflame52 @ Reprobation
is said to be "contrary both to the nature and will of God"

Reprobation, the Decree of God

Robert Purnell (1606-1666)

Reprobation is the Wise, Just, and Absolute Decree of God,
Passing by and Leaving some men unto themselves,
to suffer them to fall, and to inflict upon them Eternal Punishment
deserved by their sins,
for the praise of His Unspeakable Great Justice
(Rom 9:11, 13, 22; Jude 4; Jer 6:30).

The causes of this Decree are the Absolute Will and Good Pleasure of God
(Mat 11:26; Rom 9:13).

The End of this Decree is not the Condemnation of the creature,
but the manifestation of God’s Justice (Rom 9:22).

Yet Election and Reprobation, in a sense,
are not the causes of Salvation and Damnation:

Christ is the Proper and Meritorious Cause of Salvation;

sin [is] the proper and meritorious cause of Damnation.

Election and Reprobation are but precedent Acts or Decrees,
and the causes of Salvation and Damnation
come in between the causes and the execution thereof.

It is the foreappointment of certain angels and men
unto Everlasting Dishonor:

God of His Own Free Will Determining to Pass them by,
Refuse, or Cast Off, and for sin to Condemn
and Punish them with Everlasting Death

(Pro 16:4; Exo 9:16; Rom 9:17; 2Ti 2:20; Mat 25:41).

 

What do you think the word "all" means? How would my understanding of the word ALL be different?

I looked it up and this what I found
all
adjective
1] the whole of (used in referring to quantity, extent, or duration): all the cake; all the way; all year.
2] the whole number of (used in referring to individuals or particulars, taken collectively): all students.

pronoun
3] the whole quantity or amount: He ate all of the peanuts. All are gone.
4] the whole number; every one: all of us.

noun
5] one's whole interest, energy, or property: to give one's all;to lose one's all.
6] Often All . the entire universe.

Notice what we do not see in this list "some". So what is your understanding of the word "all" as we see in the following text. It seem quite clear to me. So humor me on this Austin.

1Ti 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

 

There is only one way of salvation and that is through faith in Christ Jesus we are saved by the grace of God or do you have a different way.

 

Thanks, MM, I did read those verses, and was actually already familiar with what they say. Here is the whole paragraph where one might apply the curse of the ground if the context will allow it.

17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (the "now" is 58 AD when this epistle was written)
23 And not only they, (a personal pronoun) but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I do not think the "creation" in verse 22 could possible be referencing the ground since a contrast is being made between two goups, both of whom had received the Spirit and become "children of God," just one group before the other group. Historically it was true if one believes the record in Acts, when those of Israel received the Spirit in 30 AD, while the rest of creation received the Spirit in Acts 10, some 10 years later. Read Acts 2 and compare with Acts 10:1 - 11:15.

Ac 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

In Re 22:3, the context is a heavenly city where no ground is.
Re 21:9 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

One can only conclude that the curse of the law will never be found in that city forever.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse (implication from eating from a forbidden tree): but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:

I cannot find anywhere that God has cursed the ground since the flood.

 

What am I saved from?

From being lost?

What sin would 'make me lost'?

Why would I want to be 'saved'?

 

context

*"For ye see your calling, brethren,
how that not many wise men after the flesh,
not many mighty, not many noble, are called:"
I Corinthians 1:26.

"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto,
but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Matthew 12:28

 

If your not sure read your bible.

 

A. The Truth As To God's Nature.

All of the false views to which we have given special attention deny that there is in the nature of God any hindrance whatsoever to the pardoning of sinners. The hindrance is supposed to be all on the sinner's part.

Christ's suffering was in no sense a satisfaction of any subjective principle in the divine nature. Thus these views logically deny the holiness and justice of God. They picture God as being love only.

Retributive wrath against sin is no element of divine nature.

That these views are false in respect to the view of divine nature furnished by them is evident from Rom. 3:25,26.

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation
through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness
for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness:
that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


We are told here that God set forth Jesus Christ

not simply as a scenic exhibition of His hatred against sin to serve the exigencies of His government;

nor as an exemplar of unselfish devotions to duty;

nor as a mere manifestation of love through the suffering of the creator with the creature;

nor yet as the means of the subjective purification of human nature;

but as a covering for sin (through expiation) that His justice might not be impugned in the justification of sinful men.

 

But God still wants all to be saved and has provided the way for that but He does not force anyone to trust in Him.
You want to see God as only loving a select group that you really can not even know if you are part of. I on the other hand see God as the bible shows Him as reaching out to all so that all can be saved. Those that trust in the Son will be saved those that reject the Son will be lost.

 

So God wants all (the entire world of humans from Adam to the end) to be saved. Is that correct?
And God passively sits in heaven, doing nothing but watching to see if what he wants will come true? Correct?
He will not sway anyone, one way or the other because that would (in your words) "force" them to trust him. Correct?

Congratulations, Sliverhair, you are a Deist. You are essentially promoting the same world that Atheists believe in, except that God exists in your world...he just doesn't do anything since that would be "forcing" in your mind.

You are so very far away from what God teaches in His Word about His means of salvation. Go back to your humanist headquarters, Sliverhair.

 

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Mar_16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luk_4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HAS ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HAS SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED;

Joh 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Joh 16:10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
Joh 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

The only ones that would fit into God forcing one to be saved would be you calvinists. According to your theology all of you were picked out prior to creation (or at least you hope your part of that group) so you had nothing to do with you salvation (so you can't really know if you are saved) and then you reinforce that idea by your DoG that says your were dragged by His Irresistible Grace. Sure sounds like forced to me or could you resist that dragging?

As per normal you try to twist what anyone says that points out the errors of your theology. Just continue on your blinded journey in your calvinism and I will continue to trust what the bible teaches.

Will say though, your ad hominem attacks are rather childish. But it seems to be a staple of yours.

 

Alan you need the context to get the whole picture regarding salvation.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The righteousness of God is revealed not by the law but by faith in Christ Jesus. Even though we are all sinners this righteousness is for all that believe. God will justify us by His grace because His Son was the propitiation for sins and we can and will be justified by God because we have faith in the risen Son, Christ Jesus.

So we see the love of God and also the justice of God in these words.

 

This is your opinion...period...not a thing to back it up from Scripture. Maybe you should take your own advice about repentance. Also repeating something in two differing posts doesn't make it so. It's a shame some try to resort to this tactic.

 

"All theologies that in any manner teach or imply there was any obligation upon God to do this or that for fallen, rebellious subjects of law,

are unscriptural,

unreasonable,

if not blasphemous".
T.P. Simmons.

The Bible clearly teaches that the lost in Hell will suffer for all their sins.
Rom. 2:5,6; 11 Cor. 5:10; Eph. 5:5,6; 11 Pet. 2:9-13; A. S. V.; Rev. 20:13.

B. This theory is futile, in that it is not necessary
as a basis for any scriptural fact, duty, or result,
or as proof of any revealed truth.

(a) It cannot be argued that God was under obligation to provide redemption for all men without exception, for such an argument would exclude grace from the atonement. Grace means not only unmerited favor but also favor that is not owed. Grace and obligation are mutually exclusive.

Furthermore, if God was obligated to provide redemption for every son of Adam, He would be obligated likewise to give to each one the ability to receive that redemption by faith.

This God has not done, as we have shown in the previous chapter on Election.*

*Throughout this chapter we assume the truth of Unconditional Election as set forth in the preceding chapter.

We would not waste time trying to prove the truth as to a Limited Atonement, or Election, to an Arminian. ________

"Redemption, as well as Creation,
must also be a purely Sovereign Determination of the Divine Will.

This is required by the necessities of the case,
as well as plainly declared in Scripture.

No doctrine of redemption that
in any way casts the slightest shadow
over the high mountain of Divine Sovereignty
can not be tolerated for a moment.


"It cannot be, that one soul for whom He (Christ) gave His life and spilled His blood; whose sins He bore and whose curse He sustained, should ever finally perish.

Because if that were the case, Divine Justice,
after having exacted and received satisfaction
at the hand of the Surety,
would make a demand on the principal;

in other words, would require double payment"
(Booth, The Reign of Grace, p. 235).

This would be Blasphemy and if an individual soul can't see it,
then, maybe, they can't even and have never been able to consider:
Divine Justice,
after having exacted and received satisfaction
at the hand of the Surety,
would make a demand on the principal;

in other words, would require double payment".

Something else very severe could be their issue.

Saved individuals are to have a teachable Spirit
and one that repents of Blasphemous charges against a Holy God.
...

"Can a God of infinite ethical perfection,
who with His own hand
laid the awful burden of the sinner's guilt
upon the adorable Surety,
repudiate His own covenant engagements
and withhold from Him the reward purchased
at the cost of His most precious blood?

To say so is tantamount to an impeachment
of the Truth and Justice of our covenant-keeping God"

(Prof. Robert Watts, Sovereignty of God, comprising articles of Pres. C. W. Northrup, published in the Standard of Chicago, and those of Prof. Watts in reply, which latter articles were written at the suggestion of T. T. Eaton and published in the Western Recorder during Eaton's editorship).

...

III. By the decree of God, for the Manifestation of His Glory,
some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life,
and others foreordained to everlasting death.

f 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41.
g Rom. 9:22,23; Eph. 1:5,6; Prov. 16:4.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed;
and their number is so certain and definite,
that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

h 2 Tim. 2:19; John 13:18.

The Westminster Confession of Faith

...
A lost sinner remains dead in sins and trespasses,
until being Quickened & Renewed by the Holy Spirit,
and is thereby Spiritually Enabled to Answer the Effectual Call of God,
by and through the Instrumentation of The WORD of GOD
and to Embrace the Grace Offered and Conveyed in it;

by The Power, that Raised up Christ from the Dead.

Eph. 1.19,20.

19 "And what is the Exceeding Greatness of His Power
to us-ward who believe, according to the Working of His Mighty Power,

20 Which He Wrought in Christ, when He Raised Him from the Dead,
and set Him at His Own Right Hand in the Heavenly Places,"

 

Romans 3:10; As it is written,

There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulcher;
with their tongues they have used deceit;
the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

these verses happen to be in context to and are indispensable,
by the The Bible reader.

As well as,

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:

for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

...

All of these statements amount to the same thing-a general atonement with a limited application or design. This we believe and hope to prove is a contradiction of terms, contrary to reason, repugnant to, the nature of God, and not according to a consistent interpretation of Scripture.

By The God of Justice

A. This theory provides no real satisfaction of God's justice,
or it involves God in the injustice
of punishing those for whom justice has been satisfied.

Here is a dilemma, and each advocate of a general atonement
may choose which horn he chooses to hang on.

One of these propositions must be true.

The former proposition is probably the one
that most advocates of a general atonement
are logically forced to accept.

No doubt most of them would subscribe
to the declaration that if there had been
but one sinner to save
it would have been necessary for Christ
to have suffered exactly and identically what He did suffer.

Boyce says:
"What Christ needed to do for one man,
would have been sufficient for all" (Abstract of Theology, p. 314).

Strong says:
"Christ would not need suffer more, if all were to be saved"
(Systematic Theology, p. 422).

This notion as to Christ's suffering
is altogether inconsistent with justice.

A thousand sinners in Hell,
all deserving the same degree of punishment,
will suffer a thousand times as much
as any one of them will suffer individually.

It will take that to satisfy justice.

Now will justice be satisfied in Christ for the entire thousand
if Christ suffers only as much as one sinner would suffer?

In other words, does justice demand one thing
of sinners themselves and another of Christ as their substitute?

This is exactly what the theory of a general atonement involves.

The theory of a general atonement
no more satisfies justice than the governmental theory.

In Christ's death we have,
according to the theory of a general atonement,
only a scenic display of God's wrath against sin;

then God at will applies the benefits of this to whom He will.

In other words, in view of what Christ did,
God relaxes strict justice and saves
a countless multitude of sinners,
who deserved Hell and for whom justice
has not been actually satisfied. (??)

So instead of Christ's death affording God
the means of being just and yet of saving believing sinners,
it enables Him to relax His justice.

...
(3) The Bible clearly teaches that the lost in Hell
will suffer for all their sins.

Rom. 2:5,6; 11 Cor. 5:10; Eph. 5:5,6;
11 Pet. 2:9-13; A. S. V.; Rev. 20:13.

 

What you see and that's it.

No concern for God's Nature, Justice, or "Love" that within the bounds of Revealed Truths.

Note:
A. The Truth As To God's Nature.


All of the false views to which we have given special attention deny that there is in the nature of God any hindrance whatsoever to the pardoning of sinners. The hindrance is supposed to be all on the sinner's part. Christ's suffering was in no sense a satisfaction of any subjective principle in the divine nature.


Thus these views logically deny the holiness and justice of God. They picture God as being love only. Retributive wrath against sin is no element of divine nature.


That these views are false in respect to the view of divine nature furnished by them is evident from Rom. 3:25,26. We are told here that God set forth Jesus Christ not simply as a scenic exhibition of His hatred against sin to serve the exigencies of His government; nor as an exemplar of unselfish devotions to duty; nor as a mere manifestation of love through the suffering of the creator with the creature; nor yet as the means of the subjective purification of human nature; but as a covering for sin (through expiation) that His justice might not be impugned in the justification of sinful men.

 

...
The Truth As To The Nature Of The Law.


All of the false views of the atonement to which we have given special treatment represent the law of God as a purely arbitrary appointment that may be relaxed partially or wholly at will instead of a revelation of the nature of God with no more possibility of change in its demands than there is of change in the nature of God. It demands an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. It demands that every transgression and disobedience shall receive a just recompense of reward. Heb. 2:2. The view of the atonement that is correct must recognize this.


C. The Truth As To The Guilt Of Sin.


These false views that we are considering deny that sin involves us in objective guilt that requires expiation. The following Scriptures teach that it does: John 3:36; Rom. 1:18; 2:5,6, 3:19; 6:23; Gal. 3:10; Eph. 5:5,6; Col. 3:5,6; Rev. 20:13.


D. The Truth as to the Substitutionary Nature of the Atonement.


The following passages show that the suffering of Christ was a substitute for the suffering that believers would have undergone in Hell:


"Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows ... was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:4-6). ". . . being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forebearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at the present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:24,25). Propitiation is a synonym of expiation, which means "enduring the full penalty of a wrong or crime." Propitiation appeases the lawgiver by satisfying the law in the rendering of "a full legal equivalent for the wrong done."


Rom. 2:5,6; 11 Cor. 5:10; Eph. 5:5,6;
11 Pet. 2:9-13; A. S. V.; Rev. 20:13.