Can You Come to Christ on Your Own

[AustinC]

Read your posts Austin it is a constant thing with you. You act as if you are the source of all truth and all must bow to your view or they are humanists, pelagians, or whatever other pejorative you can think to use.

Again, prove your assertion, or admit you are wrong.
The Bible is clear. Your fight is against God, not me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Greek or Roman. Which Cato said it? Anyway, that’s Will Durant’s spelling on the quote…in the Civilization book series, “Caesar and Christ”

It was the Roman senator Cato the Elder who said it. After the end of the Second Punic War (Rome vs Carthage), he insisted that Rome would never be safe so long as Carthage existed and he ended every speech he gave with the words 'Delenda est Carthago,' Eventually, some time after his death, he was heeded, and Carthage was utterly destroyed in (if memory serves) 136 BC.

 

[DaveXR650]

It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.
The option to accept or reject trusting in Christ Jesus is real or it is just an illusion and if it is an illusion then to what purpose that would be I am not sure.

It's real. And like you said it's able to be influenced. Just how that works and how much influence is needed is the question. Is just being presented with the facts about Christ and him crucified sufficient? Or is the word sufficient and does it have power in itself to influence you? Or does it come from the Holy Spirit's influence and conviction. Or is there an innate sense of right and wrong that can provide enough influence. Or, does the Holy Spirit actually exert some actual creative enlightening power and is that an influence or actual regeneration. I just happen to think that the Holy Spirit does exert some influence or power and I don't really know if regeneration or being born again comes first but I do believe this power is decisive. And I have observed that this power is not equally distributed to everyone but as near as I can tell, for the most part looks like it occurs in some sovereign fashion.
The only problem I have with a strong Calvinist view on this would be that I think there is evidence that this work of the Spirit is sometimes gradual and gentle and it looks to me like it may be possible for men to mess this up and defy it and be left to their own choice somewhere in the process. On the other side I see no evidence that men come to faith just based on a bare hearing of the facts of the gospel.

 

[Silverhair]

It's real. And like you said it's able to be influenced. Just how that works and how much influence is needed is the question. Is just being presented with the facts about Christ and him crucified sufficient? Or is the word sufficient and does it have power in itself to influence you? Or does it come from the Holy Spirit's influence and conviction. Or is there an innate sense of right and wrong that can provide enough influence. Or, does the Holy Spirit actually exert some actual creative enlightening power and is that an influence or actual regeneration. I just happen to think that the Holy Spirit does exert some influence or power and I don't really know if regeneration or being born again comes first but I do believe this power is decisive. And I have observed that this power is not equally distributed to everyone but as near as I can tell, for the most part looks like it occurs in some sovereign fashion.
The only problem I have with a strong Calvinist view on this would be that I think there is evidence that this work of the Spirit is sometimes gradual and gentle and it looks to me like it may be possible for men to mess this up and defy it and be left to their own choice somewhere in the process. On the other side I see no evidence that men come to faith just based on a bare hearing of the facts of the gospel.

I can agree with much of what you have written here. I trust what the bible says about the Holy Spirit convicting people which you could call a creative enlightening power in some sense. But it is just because the HS does do that that we see man actually does have a free will. Man can and often does reject the conviction of the HS often for an extended period of time. Where you see this conviction as being unequal in distribution I see it as man just being more stubborn in their rejection. When the bible tells me that God holds His hands out all day long and that He desires all to come to repentance I believe that. What Stephen said to the Jews {“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit...."Acts of the Apostles 7:51} can be applied to the gentiles as well. But our own salvation would indicate that man can and sometimes will change their minds and that is called free will.
I think if people are honest with themselves when they look back at how they came to trust in Christ Jesus they would see many things that have brought them to the point where they finally humbled themselves and trusted in Him for their salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, prove your assertion, or admit you are wrong.
The Bible is clear. Your fight is against God, not me.

Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 3:10-18
Ephesians 1:3-14

You view all these through your special lens even after you have been shown by context and scholars that you view is in error. When it was pointed out to you the root of your theology you just scoffed at the information as it did not fit your desired narrative. It is not a matter of whether you believe what I say but you should believe what the bible says.

 

[AustinC]

What exactly do you think Jesus prayer in John 17 is all about? I'll give you a hint, it is not about this:

The main thing you get out of the prayer in John 17 is "His total supremacy over you"? That's warped. God's sovereignty is there but you make people think that there is an equal selection in God's sovereignty, that there is a good possibility that for some of you out there - you may just be "out", so don't think you can get in just because you want to. Jesus says "the hour is come" in verse 1 and most of his prayer is about his disciples, who he will be leaving. So he prays for them as separate from the world. But then what does he do? He says in verse 18 that " As thou has sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world". And in John 17:20 and in John 17:21 he says that he is not just praying for them as "opposed" or opposite the world, but because he is sending them into the world why? "That the world may believe that thou hast sent me and that they would all be one." And he goes on to say that he desires that the world would know that God has loved him (Jesus) and all of them in the world.
Verse 20 says "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word".
@Silverhair and I go round and round over the meaning of free will. It's an interesting topic for those who read books. It's not necessary, I don't think you have to be right on it, thank goodness, in order to be saved. I like Jonathan Edward's take on it to the extent I can understand it while Silverhair is way more of the opinion that the free will is in some way autonomous. But one theme that keeps coming up when I talk to him or anyone who does not consider themselves a Calvinist is the idea they have gotten somewhere that Calvinism is all about a caricature of a heartless God looking down and equally desiring the destruction and torment of most of the "world". I can see where they get that. I am so thankful that I read (yes read) tons of sermons by well known Calvinists before I listened to the "logical" arguments the modern Calvinists were making.

Is God's total supremacy not in Jesus prayer, DaveX?
I get God's total supremacy from John 17 because it is there, just as it is in Romans 3, Ephesians 1 and in every statement in scripture.
Either God is totally supreme...or He isn't God. Instead, at best, he is one of the vast pantheon of lesser gods. So, is God totally supreme, DaveX?

 

[AustinC]

Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 3:10-18
Ephesians 1:3-14

You view all these through your special lens even after you have been shown by context and scholars that you view is in error. When it was pointed out to you the root of your theology you just scoffed at the information as it did not fit your desired narrative. It is not a matter of whether you believe what I say but you should believe what the bible says.

Show quotes from me that go against the great scholars you have provided.
Sliverhair, at what point will you admit that your assertions are empty of substance?

As to your last point. I entirely believe what the Bible says, which is why I contend against your assertions.

 

[DaveXR650]

Is God's total supremacy not in Jesus prayer, DaveX?
I get God's total supremacy from John 17 because it is there, just as it is in Romans 3, Ephesians 1 and in every statement in scripture.
Either God is totally supreme...or He isn't God. Instead, at best, he is one of the vast pantheon of lesser gods. So, is God totally supreme, DaveX?

He is. And that is definitely in Jesus prayer. The problem with you, is that you pick an aspect that means something to you and then think it's wrong if someone doesn't feel the same about the whole passage. Why would you only camp on the "total supremacy" in this passage. What do you have against the parts that show the love of God for the world? Are they not there too? Are you not able to realize that there could be more than one thing taught in a passage? There is a lot more in John 17 than God's total supremacy.

 

[Silverhair]

Show quotes from me that go against the great scholars you have provided.
Sliverhair, at what point will you admit that your assertions are empty of substance?

As to your last point. I entirely believe what the Bible says, which is why I contend against your assertions.

I have shown you as have others so just take the time to read what others have said rather than just dismiss any comment that does not line up with your narrow view. Anyone that has read your posts knows of what I have spoken just as you also know how you have behaved on this board.

 

[DaveXR650]

I think if people are honest with themselves when they look back at how they came to trust in Christ Jesus they would see many things that have brought them to the point where they finally humbled themselves and trusted in Him for their salvation.

I agree and I have noticed that a lot of strong Calvinists, in their teaching appeal to men's reason, commands and warnings in the scripture and they try to show the blessedness and the advantages of coming to Christ. In other words they appeal to the will. But the Holy Spirit will give any actual success to those appeals. Without such a view though you can go to where you think this is a matter of rational argumentation or even salesmanship. You can depend on fleshly methods to the point where you try to create a certain mood by invitation music or by a emotional story to get people in a mood to make a decision. I saw this first hand and that is a lot of the reason for the upsurge in strong Calvinism I think - and rightfully so. I have a G. Campbell Morgan book and as much as I respect him, some of his own writing in this area is cringeworthy.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It was the Roman senator Cato the Elder who said it. After the end of the Second Punic War (Rome vs Carthage), he insisted that Rome would never be safe so long as Carthage existed and he ended every speech he gave with the words 'Delenda est Carthago,' Eventually, some time after his death, he was heeded, and Carthage was utterly destroyed in (if memory serves) 136 BC.

I like Cato the Elder, he had gravitas … a virtue gravely lacking in todays world. Delenda est Russia, China, S. Korea.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree and I have noticed that a lot of strong Calvinists, in their teaching appeal to men's reason, commands and warnings in the scripture and they try to show the blessedness and the advantages of coming to Christ. In other words they appeal to the will. But the Holy Spirit will give any actual success to those appeals. Without such a view though you can go to where you think this is a matter of rational argumentation or even salesmanship. You can depend on fleshly methods to the point where you try to create a certain mood by invitation music or by a emotional story to get people in a mood to make a decision. I saw this first hand and that is a lot of the reason for the upsurge in strong Calvinism I think - and rightfully so. I have a G. Campbell Morgan book and as much as I respect him, some of his own writing in this area is cringeworthy.

I think your use of the word cringeworthy is apt for some of the emotional displays that I have seen. I think that would help explain why we have so many conversions that only last until the first trial.

Without the conviction of the Holy Spirit none would see their sinful nature and desire to change actually why would they want to change?

A.W. Tozer has been famously quoted as saying:

“God does not will which choice you'll make but that you'll be free to make it”

 

[Silverhair]

I like Cato the Elder, he had gravitas … a virtue gravely lacking in todays world. Delenda est Russia, China, S. Korea.

I can see Russia & China but why S.Korea?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can see Russia & China but why S.Korea?

Typo… North Korea

 

[AustinC]

I have shown you as have others so just take the time to read what others have said rather than just dismiss any comment that does not line up with your narrow view. Anyone that has read your posts knows of what I have spoken just as you also know how you have behaved on this board.

Show the quotes, Sliverhair, or admit you are making it up

 

[AustinC]

He is. And that is definitely in Jesus prayer. The problem with you, is that you pick an aspect that means something to you and then think it's wrong if someone doesn't feel the same about the whole passage. Why would you only camp on the "total supremacy" in this passage. What do you have against the parts that show the love of God for the world? Are they not there too? Are you not able to realize that there could be more than one thing taught in a passage? There is a lot more in John 17 than God's total supremacy.

What do feelings have to do with rightly dividing God's word?
I couldn't care less how someone feels. I care what God's word says.

I have been in Sunday school classes where people just spew out "I feel" statements. Do they realize that the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked? Who can know it?
When we study God's word, we wrestle with the text until our misguided "feelings" are superceded by God's word as it is.

As to John 17, there certainly is more to learn. In this thread, however, the point is about God's supremacy.

 

[DaveXR650]

As to John 17, there certainly is more to learn. In this thread, however, the point is about God's supremacy.

Based on that, what makes you feel that a thread about the ability of men to come to Christ, and what amount of help is necessary, would be all about God's supremacy. The reason I ask is that I believe that a decisive amount of help is needed on God's part or no one will come to Christ. Others tend to think that sufficient light is available just in the word or with conscience or preaching and the rest can be done by human reason. When they assert such a thing, do you view that as an offense against God's supremacy, rather than just an error in understanding? And if you do, please explain it because it seems to me that that view would mean there were certain people that God did not want to be saved - and a view that men can choose on their own would be to somehow get around that.

 

[AustinC]

Based on that, what makes you feel that a thread about the ability of men to come to Christ, and what amount of help is necessary, would be all about God's supremacy. The reason I ask is that I believe that a decisive amount of help is needed on God's part or no one will come to Christ. Others tend to think that sufficient light is available just in the word or with conscience or preaching and the rest can be done by human reason. When they assert such a thing, do you view that as an offense against God's supremacy, rather than just an error in understanding? And if you do, please explain it because it seems to me that that view would mean there were certain people that God did not want to be saved - and a view that men can choose on their own would be to somehow get around that.

The thread is: Can You Come to Christ on Your Own?
The Supremacy of God is front and center.
I highlighted your statement where you give some wiggle room for man to assist God, but the decisive amount would be on God.
Does the word of God teach cooperation with God in order to be saved? If so, please provide the passage or passages that teach us that we must cooperate with God or He cannot save us.

When God states His Sovereignty in Romans 9, should I just ignore it simply because someone else wants to ignore it and proclaim cooperative salvation?

*Romans 9:10-29*
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”

 

[Silverhair]

Show the quotes, Sliverhair, or admit you are making it up

Austin you know what you are like on this board when you respond to my posts so just go and read them again. You dismiss anyone that points out your errors and use whatever pejorative comes to your mind.
How many times have you rejected others posts as humanist or pelagian because they do not fit your errant theological view. I pointed out the bad root of your theology and what did you do other than dismiss the information. It seems you do not want truth.

 

[Silverhair]

What do feelings have to do with rightly dividing God's word?
I couldn't care less how someone feels. I care what God's word says.

I have been in Sunday school classes where people just spew out "I feel" statements. Do they realize that the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked? Who can know it?
When we study God's word, we wrestle with the text until our misguided "feelings" are superceded by God's word as it is.

As to John 17, there certainly is more to learn. In this thread, however, the point is about God's supremacy.

But Austin you do not want to allow God to be sovereign unless He fits into your idea of what sovereign means.