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Featured Satan Murdered Jesus - The Scripture and Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Arthur King, Oct 18, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What fiction?

    That Christ died at the hands of wicked men?

    That it was sinful for the Jews to hand Him over to be crucified but this they did in ignorance, and it was the predetermined plan of God?

    That Christ lay down His own life and was killed by evildoers?

    That Jesus was unjustly arrested in fulfillment of Scripture?

    That those who caused Christ's suffering and death were doing the work of their father the Devil?



    How about this - provide a verse stating that God killed Jesus.
     
  2. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    Why do you think being the victim of Satan and being the lamb of God are mutually exclusive?

    I would argue that Jesus cannot be the Lamb of God unless he is the victim of sinners, those sinners being sinful humans and Satan and demons. The mechanism of atonement requires that Jesus' death be unjust - so that justice can be satisfied in the resurrection as the reversal and reparation of all that sin has destroyed and the fulfillment of God's covenant promises (Acts 12:32).

    Note that in the sacrificial system, it is always the sinner/offerer who slays the sacrifice.

    God predestined that Joseph would go down to Egypt. Joseph was still the victim of his brothers' sin and injustice.
    God predestined that Israel would be slaves of Egypt. Israel was still a victim of Egypt's sin and injustice.
    God predestined that Abel would be slain by Cain. Abel was still the victim of Cain's sin and injustice.
    God predestined that Stephen would be martyred. Stephen was still the victim of sin and injustice.

    Etc, etc, etc, I could do this all day.
     
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Some/many were ignorant, but the big reason they had Him crucified was jealousy.

    17 When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?
    18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27; Matthew 21:38; Acts of the Apostles 13:45; Acts of the Apostles 17:5 ...Jealousy/envy/enmity from those that were first towards those that were second being a consistent theme throughout the scripture.
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    And greed.

    John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."


    The reason I say ignorance is that they were blind to Christ's true identity. In his sermon Peter appealed to Deuteronomy, that sins committed in ignorance could be forgiven.

    Ultimately it was Satan. It was temptation by the Tempter. We at least know this as Satan entered Judas.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Ah, many knew: John 5:18; John 10:33; Matthew 21:38, Matthew 26:64-66; or Satan, the driving force behind the crucifixion knew, as did the demons Luke 8:24

    Acts 2? Yes, his audience was DEVOUT Jews, not the devil's children.

    ...and then there's Peter, and "the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience" that crucified Christ.
     
    #45 kyredneck, Oct 21, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2023
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...kinda sorta like blasphemy of the Spirit Matthew 12:31
     
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  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I want to start by apologizing that I will be repeating many of the arguments that I have presented in other threads. This is unfortunate, but apparently there are those who think that this horse isn’t quite dead yet and needs some more flogging.

    I will start by listing some of the main texts concerning the death of the Lord Jesus.

    Isaiah 53:10. ‘Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise [or ‘crush’ or ‘strike’] Him; He has put Him to grief.’ Where is Satan here? Nowhere! Note that the Lord does not bruise or crush our Lord’s heel; He crushes the whole Person.

    Zechariah 13:7. ‘”Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My Companion,” says the LORD of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.”’ Our Lord makes it very clear in Matthew 26:31 who is doing the striking: I will strike the Shepherd…..’ Any mention of Satan? Nope!

    John 10:17-18. “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. This command I have received from My Father.” No one can kill God, and that includes Satan. At the ninth hour, when He had accomplished salvation for His people, the Lord Jesus ‘gave up [literally, ‘dismissed’] His spirit.’ (John 19:30). The verses that follow must be read in the light of this.

    Acts of the Apostles 2:22. “[Christ], being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you haven taken by lawless hands, have crucified and put to death.” Any sign of Satan here? Nope! Only the determined purpose of God.

    Acts of the Apostles 3:14-15, 17. “But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of Life…. Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.” Where is Satan here? Nowhere! Was Satan the cause of the Jews crucifying Christ? No. They did it in ignorance.

    Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28. “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined to be done.” Whose hand? Whose determined purpose? Not Satan’s.

    And now my favourite: Romans 3:25-26. ‘Whom God set forth as a propitiation by [or ‘through’ or ‘in’] His blood.’ That is, God sent our Lord to earth as a sacrifice that takes away wrath, and He could do that only through death – the shedding of His blood. And God did this ‘to demonstrate His righteousness.’ He could not forgive sins and still be just without extracting a just penalty, and this He did through the Lord Jesus, ‘To demonstrate His righteousness’ in forgiving the sins of the O.T. saints their sins – that is why Christ is called, ‘The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world’ – and ‘to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.’ So where is the devil in all this? Nowhere to be seen.

    But he’s there hiding somewhere, isn’t he? Because 1 John 3:8 tells us, ‘For this reason the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.’ What were the works of the devil? To lure mankind via Adam and Eve into sin. And through this, Satan has a certain power before God. He is the ‘accuser of our brethren, who accuses them day and night before God’ (Revelation 12:10). In Job 1 & 2, we see Satan come right into the presence of God to accuse Job, and in Zechariah 3:1, we see him in the presence of the Angel of the Lord, to accuse Joshua the High Priest. He has this power because there is truth in his accusations. We are sinners; we do deserve punishment, and if God is just, says Satan, He must punish all mankind.

    But through His atoning death, Christ has paid the penalty for all His people in full. ‘There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus’ (Romans 8:1). Therefore Satan is cast down, for he has nothing with which to accuse God’s people. ‘Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect?’ Not Satan; not any more! ‘It is God who justifies, who is he that condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us’ (Romans 8:33-34).

    Now Satan was no fool. He knew the Scriptures (c.f. Matthew 4:6). And therefore would have known the prophesies. So if he was to prevent Christ from destroying his works by atoning for His people’s sins on the cross, he had to do one of two things. He had either to lure our Lord into disobeying His Father, so that He would no longer be a perfect sacrifice, or He had to prevent Him from dying on the cross. This he could do either by killing Him before He came to the cross, or by tempting Him not to go there.

    [To be continued, including dealing with Genesis 3:15 and John 8]

     
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  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sir, we are done. I see no need to waste effort on your absurdity.
    Here is what scripture actually teaches:
    1) Jesus death was a victory over Satan. Hebrews 2:14
    2) Yes, the people who carried out God's plan were sinners under the influence of Satan. Not in dispute.
    3) Acts 2:23 says Jesus was put to death according to God's predetermined plan.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    God did not and does not predestine vie knowledge beforehand the sins we choose to commit. He orchestrated Christ's death as foretold in scripture. But His action was not authoring sin, but the gracious gift of everlasting life to those who believe.

    I quoted Acts 2:23. I am sure you agree that "no plan of God can be thwarted."

    If you take a big-picture view, it was not the Romans, the Jews, Satan, or even us who killed Jesus. Jesus was killed because it was the will of the Father. Jesus’ death on the cross was by God’s design so that we could have life through his death. If you want to place the blame for the death of Jesus at anyone’s feet, place it at the feet of the Father. Everyone else may have had a role to play, but all they were doing was carrying out God’s plan that was designed before the world’s creation.
    Jesus died not as the victim of Satan, but as the Lamb of God.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I thought so. When asked to provide Scripture I have often been met with the reply "Sir, we are done".

    The fact is there are no passages that support your position.

    What you do have is your ideas about what you believe Scripture teaches tested against what you believe the Bible teaches.

    I ask you, what kind of test us that?

    I will continue to affirm what is stated in God's Word over what you believe is taught. The reason is I do not trust my own understanding, and to be honest I trust yours less.

    I believe we have to be objective, and the only way to be objective is to trust in what God has revealed to us in His Word (in "what is written'....that is, the text of Scripture).
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is what scripture actually teaches:
    1) Jesus death was a victory over Satan. Hebrews 2:14
    2) Yes, the people who carried out God's plan were sinners under the influence of Satan. Not in dispute.
    3) Acts 2:23 says Jesus was put to death according to God's predetermined plan.

    But there are no passages supporting:
    1) "Describing Satan as the author of Christ's death...."
    2) "His [Christ's] death was a sin,
    3) "His death was unjust,"
    4) " His death was the act of evil,'

    Christ is the author of eternal salvation.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The problem is you are providing passages that nobody has rejected to support an idea not expressed in those passages.

    When you accept some passages but reject others because they do not fit into your theory you become the standard of your faith.

    We have to accept Scripture, and allow Scripture to dictate our belief rather than interpreting Scripture by already held views.

    Scripture does state that it was a God's will that Christ offer Himself, that it was His predetermined plan, that it "pleased Him".

    At the same time Scripture specifically says that this occurred under Satan's influence, was accomplished by wicked men, evil, evil doers.

    You are picking one set of verses and adding to them rather than accepting Scripture as a whole.
     
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  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    <waiting>

    So far you've posted no scripture that I disagree with or that supports your cockamamie assertion that Satan had nothing to do with the crucifixion
     
    #55 kyredneck, Oct 21, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2023
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did Satan have something to do with the Fall, Adam's volitional sin, with its consequence of all humanity being made sinners? Yes. Were those who put Christ to death wicked sinners under the influence of Satan? Yes
    Did Satan "murder" Jesus? Nope.
    Jesus was put to death by the predetermined plan of God. Full Stop
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is not what the Bible says.

    Jesus' death was according to the predetermined plan of God.

    BUT it was attributed not to God but to the wicked.

    Peter attributed the torture and killing of Jesus to wicked men, and the act a sin (in Peters' sermon recorded in Acts).

    In Psalm 22 the torture and upcoming death is attributed to "evil doers".

    Jesus' betrayal is attributed to Satan, as Satan entered Judas.

    Jesus even forgave the men because they did not know what it is they were doing.


    No, Scripture records that Satan authored Christ's death. But this was the predetermined plan of God.
     
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  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    What idea is expressed in those passages? Tell me. The fact that neither you nor @kyredneck can find anything to object to in them, might just tell you that you should trust them instead of two passages which don't mean what you think they mean.
    I can say exactly the same thing to you. You are refusing to re-examine your views in the light of a whole pile of Scriptures.
    What is it that prevents you from accepting the plain meaning of the texts? 'HE has put Him to grief.' 'I will strike the Shepherd.' What is so difficult and complicated about these verses that you reject them?
    Scripture says that wicked men acted according to God's predetermined plan. Acts of the Apostles 4:27 gives a whole list of them. None of them is Satan. It does not say they acted under Satan's influence. You are giving Satan glory that belongs to God.
    The Lord Jesus Christ says, "No one takes My life from Me. I lay it down of Myself." Yet the title of this thread is "Satan murdered Jesus." How can you possibly go along with that?
     
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is what is expressed in Scripture:

    1. Satan orgrastrated Christ's crucifixion. Satan entered into Judas and handed over Jesus to be killed. Christ suffered and died at the hands of wicked men, by evildoers. Christ's crucifixion was an evil act. His killing was a sin.

    2. Christ lay down His own life, went to His death as a sheep lead to the slaughter.

    3. The cross was God's predetermined plan, it was God's will to strike Him, and He offered up His own Son.


    Where we disagree is in your denial of God's Word when it comes to Christ's death being evil, being orgrastrated by Satan and your attributing to God what Scripture calls evil

    Insofar as the verses you provided, I completely agree with them (I'm sure @kyredneck does as well).

    You have a bad habit of providing verses that stated something completely different from what you believe as some type of "proof". The reason is you start with a theory and then look to the Bible for support.


    But yes, Christ lay down His own life. But it was not suicide, as you seem to think.
     
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  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    <still waiting>
     
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