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Featured Satan Murdered Jesus - The Scripture and Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Arthur King, Oct 18, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The serpent strikes the heel, the Seed of the Woman crushes the serpent's head.

    Both parts are important. Not a wounded head, not a tap on the heel.

    The snake strikes the heel (deadly) but the man crushes the snakes head (deadly). The order is important as well (the snake strikes first).
     
    #101 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Because that is not what scripture says. Scripture does not say the devil murdered Jesus. Jesus said He had the authority to lay it down and take it up.

    Scripture does say the Pharisees wanted to murder Jesus because they were behaving like Satan, their Father.

    Is Satan the literal father of those that wanted to kill Jesus? No, of course not. They wanted to kill Jesus just like Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

    Saying Satan “wanted” to kill Jesus and saying Satan actually killed Jesus are two very different things.

    Some here say Jesus was the “victim” of Satan. That makes Jesus, God, under the control of Satan. That makes Jesus, God, weaker than Satan.

    Jesus claimed He had the authority to lay down His life and take it up. He was always in control of His life. He was not a victim. He was not weaker than Satan.

    Bottom line, scripture does not support the man-centered philosophy that Satan murdered Jesus.

    peace to you
     
    #102 canadyjd, Oct 24, 2023
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    John 8:37–44 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father. . . . But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
     
    #103 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
  4. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    Are you saying a snake bite to the heel would not be considered fatal in an Ancient Near Eastern context?
     
    #104 Arthur King, Oct 24, 2023
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Uh...Scripture does say that those who killed Jesus were doing the work of Satan.
     
    #105 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The whole point of scripture making the distinction between striking the heel (non fatal) and striking the head (fatal) is to show the that one is fatal and one is not.

    There is no need to makes such a distinction if the intention is to say both are fatal blows.

    That truly makes no sense.

    Peace to you
     
    #106 canadyjd, Oct 24, 2023
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  7. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    Job is the victim of Satan. Job's victimization at the hands of Satan does absolutely nothing to threaten God's sovereignty. Same with Jesus.

    Furthermore, if I am one of several hostages, and I willingly lay down my life to be murdered by my captors in order to save my fellow hostages, I am still a victim of murder, even though I willingly lay down my life.

    (1) Jesus' willingness to be murdered and (2) God's sovereignty over the murder are not contrary to the fact that Satan murdered Jesus.
     
    #107 Arthur King, Oct 24, 2023
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Scripture does not say Satan murdered Jesus.

    Peace to you
     
    #108 canadyjd, Oct 24, 2023
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  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    In the context of the Genesis passage the strike to the heel is considered non fatal compared to a strike to the head which is fatal

    Peace to you
     
    #109 canadyjd, Oct 24, 2023
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    A snake striking the heel of a man was fatal. That was a primary concern of people who worked the land.

    The snake strikes the heel of the man, what would be a common occurrence, and what results in death. And the struck man crushes the snakes head....another common occurrence.

    Have you not read about the serpents in desert, sticking the Israelites, killing them? And Moses making the bronze serpent, lifting it up and all that looked upon it was healed?????

    Have you not read about Paul miraculously (a miracle) surviving the snake bite????

    You are making a very foolish argument.
     
    #110 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was not a hostage. You, as a hostage, are under the control of your abductors. You are a victim.

    Jesus was never under Satan’s control. Jesus was not a victim. He came FOR THE PURPOSE of laying down His life by His own authority to make substitutionary atonement for His chosen.

    Peace to you
     
    #111 canadyjd, Oct 24, 2023
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Except it does. Jesus told those Jews that were seeking to kill Him, plotting to give Him over to Time, that they were doing Satan's will.
     
    #112 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    John 8:37–44 “ you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you... therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father. . . . But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me.... You are doing the deeds of your father.... You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning,.."
     
    #113 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    First, the snake striking the heel couldn’t have been a “common occurrence” because when God made the statement only Adam and Eve were alive.

    So, your argument it was a common occurrence is unbiblical and foolish.

    Second, a clear distinction is made in the Genesis passage between striking the heel and striking the head. This is referred to as “biblical context”.

    There is a reason for the distinction which is one is fatal and one is not. To claim both are fatal blows dismisses the biblical distinction that has been made by God Himself.

    The other passages don’t apply because no mention of this distinction is made, therefore apples and oranges and so forth.

    Peace to you
     
    #114 canadyjd, Oct 24, 2023
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It became a common occurrence. It foreshadowed.

    What happened when the serpents struck the Israelites?

    They died.

    More importantly:

    "you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you....therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father. . . . But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me,".... You are doing the deeds of your father.”..."You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    You have been deceived, carried away by vain philosophy.
     
    #115 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    And that passage does NOT say Satan murdered Jesus. It says the Pharisees wanted to murder Jesus just like Satan “wanted” to murder Jesus.

    But Jesus denied Satan by laying down Hus life by His own authority.

    And Satan, and all the demons in hell wept

    Peace to you
     
    #116 canadyjd, Oct 24, 2023
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The passage says that those who killed Jesus were doing Satan's work.

    But yes, the Devil did not appear and kill Jesus.


    Your divine suicide idea fails. Jesus said that He lays down His life. That is true. But Scripture does not say Jesus killed Himself

    Jesus was led like a Lamb to the slaughter, He lay down His life, He died at the hands of wicked men who were doing the will of their father, Satan. And God delivered Him, raised Him on the third day

    There have been numerous passages stating specifically that those who sought to kill Jesus were evil, of the Devil, wicked, evil doers, doing the will of Satan, committing sins, opposing God


    You have offered not passage stating that God killed Jesus. You have not even offered a passage describing Christ death as a suicide (which is what you claim).
     
    #117 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #118 37818, Oct 24, 2023
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 3:15, does not say a fatal bite of any sort. Proverds 30:5-6, "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
     
    #119 37818, Oct 24, 2023
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not true

    It is very relevant if Jesus lay down His own life.

    I understand why you find it impossible to believe that Jesus was as a lamb led to the slaughter.

    The Jews had the same problem - they could not imagine such a thing.

    But their lack of understanding, their disbelief, did not change the truth.
     
    #120 JonC, Oct 24, 2023
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