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Featured Did those seeking to kill Jesus, doing the desires of the Devil, put Jesus to death by godless men?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Nov 1, 2023.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, for the purpose of His resurrection. Both Luke and John recorded Jesus' fellowship having been restored with the Father. Matthew and Mark record Him being forsaken per Psalms 22:1 when His soul was being given, Psalms 22:6.
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Cite the passages you're referring to please.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    .Matthew 27:46, ". . . And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . ."
    Mark 15:34, ". . . And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . ."

    John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ."

    Matthew 27:50, ". . . Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, . . ."
    Mark 15:37, ". . . And Jesus cried with a loud voice, . . ."
    Luke 23:46, ". . . Jesus had cried with a loud voice, . . ."
    John 19;30, ". . . he said, It is finished: . . ."
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think you need to cite a passage stating that Jesus' fellowship with the Father was broken (as a broken fellowship contradicts Psalm 22).

    But that's another topic for another thread.

    I think we can all agree that Jesus said those things before He died.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:

    But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

    In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:

    But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

    In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:

    They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. Jn 16:2, 8-14

    The Entity that spake these words:

    17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
    18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. Jn 10

    ...is the very same Entity that spake these words:

    Acts 2:
    …. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utteranceYe men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazarethye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

    Acts 4:
    Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

    Acts 6 & 7:
    …there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52
     
    #45 kyredneck, Nov 2, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2023
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What does being forsaken by God mean to you regarding Jesus on the cross?
    Psalms 22:1, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Does this sound like an unbroken fellowship to you?
    His phyisical death, not His soul.
    Jesus soul died on the cross per Isaiah 53:10 and Isaiah 53:12.
    Jesus taught the death of the body is not death of the soul, Matthew 10:28.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe Jesus was forsaken to suffer (I believe Psalm 22 foreshadowed the Crucifixion).

    Does this sound like unbroken fellowship? Yes - if Psalm 22 in fact is foreshadowing Christ's suffering. In the Psalm the "Suffering Servant" cries out "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?". As we move from that first verse the Servant recalls when His forefathers were forsaken to suffer and cried out to God resulting in deliverance.

    There are stark similarities between what the Servant experiences and Jesus' crucifixion (one reason I believe the Psalm is foreshadowing the Crucifixion).

    In the end it turns out that the Servant was indeed forsaken to suffer but that God never abandoned Him. Instead He was delivered - not from suffering but through that suffering - resulting in a demonstration of God's righteousness which would be declared through generations to come.


    Jesus told us that there is death (a physical death) and a "second death" which is when Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire.


    On this thread I am talking about Jesus' physical death on the cross (the children of the Devil putting Him to death).
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Even so, Jesus' actual physical death was by His volition.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. It was not, however, suicide (it was a sacrifice....an offering). And He had to be put to death by men Jesus said were doing the work of their father the Devil.

    All of Scripture is true. We cannot understand the gospel until we are able to at least accept all that God says about Christ's sacrifice.

    We can emphasize points at any given time, but none of God's Word should be ignored.

    (I know I'm "preaching to the choir", but there have been some alarming posts by others on this topic).
     
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  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Egad, for the umpteenth time, no one has denied that.

    53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 How then should the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? Mt 26
     
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  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Once again:

    "The Entity that spake these words:

    17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
    18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. Jn 10

    ...is the very same Entity that spake these words:

    Acts 2:
    …. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utteranceYe men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazarethye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

    Acts 4:
    Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

    Acts 6 & 7:
    …there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52"
     
    #51 kyredneck, Nov 3, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2023
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  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    @37818 said:
    .Matthew 27:46, ". . . And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . ."
    Mark 15:34, ". . . And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . ."

    Why are you still harping about PST when the OP concerns 'the serpent bruising the seed of the woman'? This thread is not about PST vs CV. It's about Satan killing Christ (ONLY BECAUSE CHRIST ALLOWED IT).
     
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep. And we read this in Psalm 22 as well. Not only did Jesus lay down His own life, but He was forsaken to suffer as deliverance would come after His death (the Resurrection). I'm not sure that those are debatable verses.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, it is my understanding His soul being forsaken ended prior to John 19:28. And was declared it being it is finished before He physically died and His soul going to the upper Hades from where He will return from the dead (Acts 2:27-31) and being raised bodily from the dead.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand. We had discussed your position before on another thread (I can't remember which one).
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    What has this to do with Satan killing Christ (ONLY BECAUSE CHRIST ALLOWED IT)? Are you still in PST vs CV mode?
     
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