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Featured The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ? 9

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Sep 7, 2023.

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  1. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    John wrote it, per the Holy Spirit.

    Not me.

    1 John 2:2 (KJV)
    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

    1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV)
    For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
     
    #141 MrW, Dec 27, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    But you posted it in this context of our discussion, so its your false witness. People can handle the word deceitfully.
     
    #142 Brightfame52, Dec 27, 2023
  3. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    So if I post the Bible, the Bible becomes FALSE, because I posted it. Interesting that I have such power.

    The sun is hot. I just posted that, so now the sun is ice cold?

    I did not author the King James Bible, just in case there is any doubt.

    1 John 2:2 (KJV)
    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

    (Is the whole world elect?)

    1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV)
    For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
     
    #143 MrW, Dec 27, 2023
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Yes you the one posting the scripture, so its your false witness. The scripture is fine
     
    #144 Brightfame52, Dec 27, 2023
  5. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I don't understand what you mean by this accusation.
     
    #145 Scarlett O., Dec 27, 2023
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @Brightfame52,
    How and what convinced you Christ only paid for His sheep?
     
    #146 37818, Dec 27, 2023
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    How is it a accusation ? Im posting that Christs death saved them He died for, have you read this thread ? And we know that everyone isnt saved so evidently Christs death was only for them that are saved, which is called limited atonement. So its obvious the poster doesnt agree, therefore when he or she posts scripture which appear to be against limited atonement, I see it as a false witness, simple as that.. And I have given my reasons why in this thread. So i dont understand what you mean by this accusation.
     
    #147 Brightfame52, Dec 27, 2023
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Read the thread, thats what its about.
     
    #148 Brightfame52, Dec 27, 2023
  9. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    You "accused" him of being a false witness. That's an accusation.

    I have read every single post on this thread. It started weeks ago when I saw you adding words [in brackets] to the scriptures. Every single time I saw that you posted here, I came and read your posts wishing to speak to you, but knowing it wouldn't bear much fruit. But I have read all the posts here.
    That's just it, BrightFame52. There is NO evidence that Christ's blood is limited to a select few. You are making a hard and fast assumption that is not valid nor Biblical. The scripture that Mr. W. cites is blatantly evidential of that.

    Calling someone a false witness because he/she disagrees with limited atonement is bad form. False witnesses go to hell.

    I'm done here.
     
    #149 Scarlett O., Dec 27, 2023
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    At this point that tells me no such thing.
    Look at you reply to 1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

    Colossians 1:20, ". . . And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. . . ."
     
    #150 37818, Dec 27, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2023
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    Now, read that verse I just posted.

    Did Christ say that He laid down His life for every person? No.

    Did Christ say that He laid down His life for the sheep AND the goats? No.

    Did Christ say that He laid down His life for the sheep? YES!

    Those who claim that Christ died for everyone, including the millions in Hell, I have only two choices to attempt to defend their position:

    1) That Hell is only temporary(as Christian universalists do) and that after a period a time, every single person will be brought into Heaven at some point in the ages to come.

    2) That Christ paid the sin debt of all people, but that there will still be millions(billions?) of people who will be cast eternally into Hell for the same sins that Christ already paid the penalty for.
     
    #151 KenH, Dec 27, 2023
  12. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    That makes no sense what so ever. No.

    Yes. They are in hell and will stay in hell because they did not do what God required of them and that is to believe on the ONLY Begotten Son. And God is not a puppet-master who forces people to believe.
     
    #152 Scarlett O., Dec 27, 2023
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    1) So, evidently, you do believe that the goats will suffer the penalty for their sins that Christ also already paid for them.

    2) Thus, I wonder if you agree with Noel Smith, who wrote in Defender Magazine in December 1956:

    "Hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed."

    If Christ died for any person that is not eventually saved, then I don't see how you get around what Noel Smith expressed; as you are saying that God will fail to achieve His desire - to save every single person - and thus your position indubitably leads to God being a failure.

    No, God makes everyone for whom Christ died(those in John 10:15) willing in the day of His power(Psalms 110:3).
     
    #153 KenH, Dec 27, 2023
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, . . . "
    Matthew 25:31-46.
     
    #154 37818, Dec 27, 2023
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    One of the accomplishments of Christs death is that it resulted in issuing forth a seed. Isa 53:10

    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    You see "making His soul an Offering for sin" speaks of His death, which results in seeing His seed, or His posterity spiritually. The same is the testimony of Christ Himself here Jn 12:24

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    The corn of wheat which falls into the ground and dies is Christ soul being made an offering for sin, and when He dies brings forth fruit which coincides with seeing His seed. 70
     
    #155 Brightfame52, Dec 28, 2023
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I dont put nobody in hell, a person can be a false witness prior to their conversion, like myself. I use to condition salvation on water baptism, that was a lie, however God converted me from that. So its always hope that God will convert one of His Elect from their false beliefs so I put nobody in hell. Yet I believe that limited efficacious atonement is a vital Gospel Doctrine and its in scripture. If you dont believe it, thats fine.
     
    #156 Brightfame52, Dec 28, 2023
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Read the thread, I explain why I believe in limited effectual atonement.
     
    #157 Brightfame52, Dec 28, 2023
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am sure you do.

    I also believe you are convinced your understanding of Scriptures on the matter are correct.

    The only thing, I can see we even come close to agreeing on is, Christ gave His soul for His sheep. What we disagree on, on that matter, is it is not an only for sheep.
     
    #158 37818, Dec 28, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2023
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, and a very important disagreement, since you obviously believe that Christs Death wasnt effectual enough to save everyone He died for. Thats not good
     
    #159 Brightfame52, Dec 28, 2023
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  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Understand, that is what you are also saying against Colossians 1:20.
    ". . . And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. . . ." No? Explain why not.
     
    #160 37818, Dec 28, 2023
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