Dead Man's Choice?

[KenH]

a man made doctrine that attacks the very character of God.

Not so.

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

 

[tyndale1946]

I'll answer in an affirming way - I believe the Biblical teaching that man is dead in sins, and that God chose a people(His elect) before the world began and gave them to His Son to be their Surety, and that the sins of God's elect were imputed to Christ and He paid their sin debt at the cross and that He fulfilled the law on behalf of God's elect and His perfect righteousness was imputed to them, and that in the course of time that the Holy Spirit brings God's elect under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and regenerates them and grants them the gifts of faith and repentance from dead works, and that God preserves His elect and ultimately brings them to glory in the new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It can' t be a resurrection, but they're still dead, they're just not in the grave, but it is still a type of resurrection.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Question... How can they hear the voice of the Son Of God, if its the preacher?... Brother Glen

Dead men don't make choices only live ones do!

 

[JD731]

Yes He did. It Is the good news. 'You have been reconciled'.

My response was on the issue of sovereignty of God in dealing with men and though you have obviously disagreed with my objections you answered none of my questions. Why would God, being sovereign over all things, need to reconcile anyone? Surely you do not teach and believe that God has created all men as sinners in violation of his thrice holy character, do you?

 

[Revmitchell]

Now please explain to me how you had to over react to that particular cut & paste. Wouldn’t it have been better to calmly and privately have approached Ken with an explanation why he posted it in the first place which I myself would like to have explained to me, but that’s up to Ken to share it.

I see here a wider gap in Christianity that is intent on vanquishing full Christianity via these conflicts and diatribes. All you need to do is travel to the northeast and I will show you full bore secularism in active practice. Yea, it’s easier to move somewhere else where it isn’t prevalent but Satan is a clever demon that will soon spread his discord everywhere he can. I trust you have the foresight to understand this.

Not sure what you are referring to with regard to over reacting. I do know that this is a common intentional misrepresentation by calves. I said nothing to Ken but to the article itself. I think you have misread my intentions. It might be that you should ask before assuming.

 

[JD731]

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

1) It is God who quickens, who makes alive, and not we ourselves in any way, fashion, or form.

2) We come into this world dead in sin - D-E-A-D. When Adam fell, he did not merely bruise his pinkie or merely stub his toe - he died spiritually in that day and all his posterity with him.

As my avatar quotes from Jonah 2:9 - "Salvation is of the LORD." It is not of man in any way, fashion, or form.

So if anyone has a problem with Ephesians 2:1 and being called spiritually dead, their problem is not with me.

He also said this and I will highlight the salient truth that evokes my question to you.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he (God the Father) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his (God the Father's) Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Why isn't the body D-E-A-D as you define death? If Adam dying spiritually by the Spirit leaving his body when he sinned, as you have rightly said, and his offspring being alive by receiving the Spirit of God the Father that quickens their mortal bodies at a much later time than their physical births and if Adam was the son of God (lk3:38) because the Spirit of God the Father dwelt in him from his creation and he died spiritually when he sinned causing the Spirit of God the Father to be dismissed from his body? Doesn't this force us to conclude that the definition of the spiritual death of Adam was a separation of the Spirit of God the Father from the body isf the receiving of his Spirit is life from the dead as the text says? And does the language above force us to conclude that renewal from the fallen image we receive from our father Adam at birth is accomplished when we received the image of God our father by being born as his son into his family when we are given the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ, whose blood washes away our sin?

Your false doctrines of death and life will always blind your mind that you cannot see these glorious truths that have been wrought because of the grace and mercy and love of God our Father through his Son Jesus Christ, except you repent.

How do we receive the Spirit?

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Not through election or through regeneration or predestination or baptism or church membership, but through simple faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not sure what you are referring to with regard to over reacting. I do know that this is a common intentional misrepresentation by calves. I said nothing to Ken but to the article itself. I think you have misread my intentions. It might be that you should ask before assuming.

intentional?!? Ken posted this article… why May I ask? Should he continue in his common intentional misrepresentation posts?

 

[KenH]

Why isn't the body D-E-A-D as you define death?

Spiritual death is not the same thing as the death of the fleshly body. Otherwise, none of us would have ever been born as we come into this world spiritually dead.

If Adam dying spiritually by the Spirit leaving his body when he sinned

Adam had only mere creature righteousness when he was created. That is why God's people having the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to them is so much better than what Adam had - mere creature righteousness.

How do we receive the Spirit?

God's elect believe and repent from dead works when the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gifts of repentance toward God and faith toward Christ. The Holy Spirit is given by God as an earnest.

 

[JD731]

Spiritual death is not the same thing as the death of the fleshly body. Otherwise, none of us would have ever been born as we come into this world spiritually dead.

Stop. The text in Romans says the body is dead without the Spirit BUT the body is quickened by the Spirit of God the Father in it.

Adam had only mere creature righteousness when he was created. That is why God's people having the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to them is so much better than what Adam had - mere creature righteousness.

Stop. Creature righteousness?? That is made up. I know of no doctrine that states creature righteousness.

God's elect believe and repent from dead works when the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gifts of repentance toward God and faith toward Christ. The Holy Spirit is given by God as an earnest.

I quoted a passage from Romans 8 that says plainly that the mortal body is dead until it is quickened by the presence of the Spirit in it. Then I quoted a passage from Galatians 3 that says we receive the promise of the Spirit by faith. You are making the unbiblical argument that the body is quickened by regeneration and faith and not by the Spirit as the texts I quoted plainly says. Now the text in Romans 8 says iif a man has not the Spirit of God the Father he is none of his.

But, we are drifting away from the reason for my beginning to comment. It was what you said about the sovereignty of God. I disagreed with your premise It is my argument that if God is acting on complete sovereignty then none of this matters to any of us. Nothing can change what he has determined and he has determined every thing. Why am I wrong about this?

 

[KenH]

Nothing can change what he has determined and he has determined every thing.

That is true.

"I’ve been called a hyper-calvinist because I believe in a doctrine called equal ultimacy. This doctrine is also known as double predestination. Equal ultimacy is the teaching that just as God elected to save a number of people before the foundation of the world He also elected to damn a number of people before the foundation of the world through reprobation. This belief is usually tied to supralapsarianism as opposed to infralapsarianism. Supralapsarianism is the doctrine that the events of history were brought about by God for no other reason other than these events are a fulfillment of His decree to glorify Himself and that these events are brought about as a means to an end. This is also known as Absolute Predestination. In other words, God decreed all the events of the world including the fall of men, redemption, damnation, every drop of rain, every word uttered by men, and every grunt made by beast all before the foundation of the world in order to bring about His desired result. I believe that God predestined His elect to fall in Adam so that they would be saved in Christ.

Most calvinists today are infralapsarians and they believe that God decreed to send Christ and save His people because of the fall. In the infralapsarian scheme God chooses to save individuals out of the mass of fallen humanity and then passes over the rest of humanity in reprobation. Infralapsarians usually claim to be against equal ultimacy, but it is my opinion that they cannot logically escape the conclusion that “passing over” is the same as “not electing” which is really election to the negative. It is my opinion that infralapsarianism is really a scheme of selection and not the biblical doctrine of election. Infralapsarians are often found to be opposed to supralapsarianism because they usually believe that supralapsarianism makes God the “author of sin.” What I find odd about that phrase is that it is nowhere to be found in Scripture, yet it’s a phrase that is often guarded like a sacred cow not to be touched. For the record, I do not believe evil and sin originate in the character of God but that He predestined these events for His purposes. It is impossible for God to sin, so I really don’t see what the big deal is. If you want a good definition of sin or evil, just look to God for the definitions as these things are the exact opposite of His Holy Nature. While infralapsarians often accuse supralapsarians with charging God as the “author of sin,” supralapsarians can equally charge infralapsarians with believing that God allowed sin to happen and did nothing to stop it! If I had to pick which one was worse based solely on logic, I’d have to conclude the infralapsarian scheme is because it depicts God with not getting what He wanted and without power to stop something He did not predestine. Infralapsarians also have difficulty explaining where sin came from and sometimes refer to a strange doctrine known as eternal law that exists outside of God which God Himself is bound to obey. I don’t know where any scriptural foundation for this strange belief is found, so you’ll have to ask an infralapsarian that believes in these things to explain this for you if you’re interested. It is my belief that God is the eternal law if there is such a thing.

Obviously there are major differences between supralapsarians and infralapsarians and many of them I have not covered in this paper, so please accept my description as only a cursory introduction to the uninitiated. It’s also not uncommon for infralapsarians to label supralapsarians as hyper-calvinists; but, alas, there are more doctrines which will also earn this badge of honor."

- more of this article by Brandan Kraft at Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist - Brandan Kraft

 

[Silverhair]

Not so.

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

Using verses out of context does not help your @KenH. You have walked down the road of error and you think to take others with you. Sad really really sad.

 

[SavedByGrace]

DEAD MAN'S CHOICE?

The vast majority of retail religion "worships" a grandfatherly god who has given over to them the power of eternal life, or death. On the one hand they are told they are dead in trespasses and sins, and in the next breath they are told to "make" Jesus their lord and saviour. This beggar god is a blasphemous idol of men's imagination and an affront to the God of scripture.

The scriptures declare a Sovereign God who from eternity, chose a people in time, redeemed them in Christ and reveals himself to them by the Holy Spirit. Read Romans 9, or the opening few verses of Paul's epistles and you will find that it is God alone that has chosen his sheep and has called them from death unto life. Google election, elect, predestination, or predestinated and tell me how your god gave you life because you "chose" him.

Jonah declared, "Salvation is of the Lord" and that is the sum and substance of it. If it is left up to dead men, then we are without hope. Praise God, it is not left up to the dead, but sinners, having neither merit nor life in themselves, having been chosen by God in eternity, are redeemed in Christ on a just ground and clothed in his righteousness alone so that they are accepted in the beloved. Through his grace alone they are decreed to be the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

- written by Kenny Dyess via his Facebook page

EVERY SINGLE passage quoted here has got ZERO to do with the so called, "Reformed" UNBIBLICAL teaching of "election to salvation"!

As usual, the Bible is being FORCED to say what it Does NOT!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Using verses out of context does not help your @KenH. You have walked down the road of error and you think to take others with you. Sad really really sad.

That’s not his intention. He just told you his belief system, nothing more. I don’t see him promoting it…perhaps I’m wrong here. But he is what he says he is, a Hyper-Calvinist- a full on predestination believer.And then, this is where every Child of God must look to scripture to either prove or disprove this stance.

 

[kyredneck]

My response was on the issue of sovereignty of God in dealing with men

...mine was also.

and though you have obviously disagreed with my objections

Of course we disagree, and we always will. I'm not going to change, and neither are you. Argument is futile (unless one just likes to argue for argument's sake which many do, I don't).

As far as your 'objections', they're all rooted in the same old humanistic reasonings of today's anti-Cals that Paul answered in Romans:

"Is there unrighteousness with God?"

"Why doth he still find fault?"

Surely you do not teach and believe that God has created all men as sinners in violation of his thrice holy character, do you?

29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Ecc 7

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not so.

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

Please explain for me if you will the difference between providence and predestination.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

...mine was also.



Of course we disagree, and we always will. I'm not going to change, and neither are you. Argument is futile (unless one just likes to argue for argument's sake which many do, I don't).

As far as your 'objections', they're all rooted in the same old humanistic reasonings of today's anti-Cals that Paul answered in Romans:

"Is there unrighteousness with God?"

"Why doth he still find fault?"



29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Ecc 7

Absolutely

 

[Silverhair]

That’s not his intention. He just told you his belief system, nothing more. I don’t see him promoting it…perhaps I’m wrong here. But he is what he says he is, a Hyper-Calvinist- a full on predestination believer.And then, this is where every Child of God must look to scripture to either prove or disprove this stance.

I agree that he is just putting forward his theological view. But and this is where we differ, I think it is necessary to point out the errors of his view as regards the biblical view. Should we not confront JW's or Mormons or Muslim's?

@KenH may have strong feelings about his views but when they are wrong they are wrong and need to be pointed out as so.

 

[KenH]

Please explain for me if you will the difference between providence and predestination.

"Predestination" is the decrees of God from eternity and "providence" is the events in time that God sovereignly uses to accomplish His decrees.

 

[tyndale1946]

"Predestination" is the decrees of God from eternity and "providence" is the events in time that God sovereignly uses to accomplish His decrees.

God predestines people not events, it is a whom not a what... Brother Glen

Romans 11:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Absolute predestination of all things is a lie!... Did God cause Adam and Eve to sin and them punish because they did?... And then there is this!

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

[KenH]

Did God cause Adam and Eve to sin

The fall of Adam was decreed by God from eternity. Otherwise, one is saying that God is merely reactive to what His creation does. That would be put man in charge instead of God. It would also mean that our lives are full of random events. I fully reject such a notion.

 

[Silverhair]

The fall of Adam was decreed by God from eternity. Otherwise, one is saying that God is merely reactive to what His creation does. That would be put man in charge instead of God. It would also mean that our lives are full of random events. I fully reject such a notion.

So by your own words you have made God the only real sinner as He controls all that happens. Your version of God has decreed all that will or can happen since He does not merely react to what man does and there are no random events.