"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.

[Charlie24]

Before God created man He knew man would fall. He created a plan in which fallen man could come back to Him in fellowship.

Man freely chose to disobey God, proof that man has free will to choose God's way or his own way.

Predestination is man being chosen for this plan to be redeemed and conformed in the image of Christ.

But only the man who chooses to believe and obey Christ is chosen for this plan.

The Calvinist believes that God chose him to be conformed in the image of Christ. That is correct in a way but incorrect in another.

We plainly see in the Garden that God gave Adam the choice to obey or disobey Him, a total free will to choose.

Where Calvin went wrong is when he failed to see that God gave man this free will from the very beginning.

It was because of free will given to man, and man falling by His own choice, full well knowing the consequences, that man placed himself in separation from God.

In love an mercy by God, He gave us His Son, the Second Adam, to undo the wrong man had chosen, and give us an opportunity to come back into fellowship with Him through the Cross.

As in the very beginning with man, we have a choice to accept the gift of His Son, or reject it.

 

[Charlie24]

So did God know who would not choose Him and end up in hell , even b4 He created them ?

Of course He did! But what does the Scripture say?

He is longsuffering with them, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Charlie24]

Of course He did! But what does the Scripture say?

He is longsuffering with them, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth.

The One who spoke the world into existence, and has all power to do whatever He wishes, will not force Himself on man, but will honor the decision of man, but will be longsuffering with him, having no desire for him to remain disconnected from Him.

 

[Brightfame52]

Of course He did! But what does the Scripture say?

He is longsuffering with them, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth.

Well if He already knew, and created them anyway, then He created them to disobey and go to hell duh, He knew they weren't going to be saved and be disobedient and perish in their sins, He knew their salvation was impossible, b4 He created them, duh

 

[Brightfame52]

@Charlie24

The Calvinist believes that God chose him to be conformed in the image of Christ.

He did choose them for that, its part of their salvation experience He chose them to

 

[Zaatar71]

Hello Charlie,
I see how you have presented a logical scenario Could we explore, or take a slightly different scenario.

Before God created man He knew man would fall.

God had ordained to allow the fall. Then God entered into a covenant bond with a multitude of sinners who He considered them as fallen, but set His Covenant love on them before the word was 2tim1:9

He created a plan in which fallen man could come back to Him in fellowship.

Psalm 14, rom3 suggest this is not the case. Not one will come back to Him, or seek Him, apart from a supernatural work of the Spirit!

Man freely chose to disobey God, proof that man has free will to choose God's way or his own way.

Adam's rebellion, shows that he was a "free moral agent".. untested at creation Gen1;31

Predestination is man being chosen

No..election is those sinners being selected, called out from all of humanity....those WHOM He foreknow, these and these alone are predestinated.

for this plan to be redeemed and conformed in the image of Christ.

The only Plan is that God elected a multitude of fallen sinners, to be the objects of His covenant love.

But only the man who chooses to believe and obey Christ is chosen for this plan.

Friend, there is no such man, he does not exist!
So different scenarios....Whom He did Foreknow, OR What he did foreknow???romans 8:29-30 says 4x it is whom he did foreknow...I will go with plan A.. WHOM...not what. Does this help you see it?

 

[Charlie24]

Well if He already knew, and created them anyway, then He created them to disobey and go to hell duh, He knew they weren't going to be saved and be disobedient and perish in their sins, He knew their salvation was impossible, b4 He created them, duh

God's longsuffering for the lost as portrayed in the New Testament is shown in the Old.

How many times do you see God pleading to Israel to believe Him?

But they kept refusing, and He kept punishing them.

Christ pleaded with them, Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered you together as a hen gathers her little ones under her wings, but you would not.

He was pleading with them to believe.

 

[Charlie24]

Hello Charlie,
I see how you have presented a logical scenario Could we explore, or take a slightly different scenario.

God had ordained to allow the fall. Then God entered into a covenant bond with a multitude of sinners who He considered them as fallen, but set His Covenant love on them before the word was 2tim1:9

Psalm 14, rom3 suggest this is not the case. Not one will come back to Him, or seek Him, apart from a supernatural work of the Spirit!


Adam's rebellion, shows that he was a "free moral agent".. untested at creation Gen1;31

No..election is those sinners being selected, called out from all of humanity....those WHOM He foreknow, these and these alone are predestinated.




The only Plan is that God elected a multitude of fallen sinners, to be the objects of His covenant love.

Friend, there is no such man, he does not exist!
So different scenarios....Whom He did Foreknow, OR What he did foreknow???romans 8:29-30 says 4x it is whom he did foreknow...I will go with plan A.. WHOM...not what. Does this help you see it?

You have made a free will choice in rejecting what I have presented to you!

Let it be said, let it be done!

 

[Brightfame52]

God's longsuffering for the lost as portrayed in the New Testament is shown in the Old.

How many times do you see God pleading to Israel to believe Him?

But they kept refusing, and He kept punishing them.

Christ pleaded with them, Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered you together as a hen gathers her little ones under her wings, but you would not.

He was pleading with them to believe.

Longsuffering for what ? He knew when He created them they were going to hell. Was it possible they would change their minds after God knew they werent going to ?

 

[Charlie24]

Longsuffering for what ? He knew when He created them they were going to hell. Was it possible they would change their minds after God knew they werent going to ?

Judgement, BF, He will be able to show them that He was merciful toward them, but they rejected Him anyway.

They will plainly see they sent themselves to Hell through unbelief even while God was working in longsuffering toward them.

 

[Brightfame52]

Judgement, BF, He will be able to show them that He was merciful toward them, but they rejected Him anyway.

They will plainly see they sent themselves to Hell through unbelief even while God was working in longsuffering toward them.

God created them knowing full well they are going to hell for their sins. Did He or did He not know ?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes God made some people for hell, to punish them for their sins, and He made some people for mercy and eternal glory Rom 9

You really need to learn how to read things in context BF. You continue to make the same mistakes and will not learn from them.

 

[Charlie24]

God created them knowing full well they are going to hell for their sins. Did He or did He not know ?

I have already answered that question when I said, "of course He did." Post #82.

That's what this whole thing is about with man and God, it's called "free will."

Man has a choice, BF, God doesn't want anyone to reject Him, but most will, and it's their choice to do so.

 

[Silverhair]

I showed you and you still in denial

Well I must have missed the post BF so try again.

Not your opinion but where I actually denied the glorification of the believer.

You are showing that you are just are just a lot of blow and bluster.

 

[Charlie24]

@Brightfame52

There will be many at the Judgment who will say, Lord, Lord, we did this and that, But He shall say, depart from me, I never knew you.

They did not come through the Door (through Christ) the way God the Father prescribed we must do.

There is only one way, BF, and that is through our own repentance and belief In Jesus Christ, that is the choice we have no alternative but to make on our own.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you believe in the truths of Tulip? That's part of the Gospel of God's Grace?

You mean the man-made theology birthed in the 4th century.

The TULIP has twisted the love of God into the a morass of contradiction.

The so called DoG/TULIP do not show the love of God for His creation but have made God into a cruel despot that toys with the vast majority of humanity and sends them to hell for His glory.

Only a prideful person who thinks they were prechosen B4 creation could think that is the truth of scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

Well if He already knew, and created them anyway, then He created them to disobey and go to hell duh, He knew they weren't going to be saved and be disobedient and perish in their sins, He knew their salvation was impossible, b4 He created them, duh

But under your religion God had determined that they would be disobedient not believe, He made them that way.

So if God desires all to come to repentance why did He create people that He determined would reject Him? So under the religious view that you support God is less than honest, which calls His character into question.

 

[Charlie24]

But under your religion God had determined that they would be disobedient not believe, He made them that way.

So if God desires all to come to repentance why did He create people that He determined would reject Him? So under the religious view that you support God is less than honest, which calls His character into question.

Exactly! The Calvinist theology is character assassination of God Himself.

What does God think of that? It's not going to be good.

 

[Silverhair]

Exactly! The Calvinist theology is character assassination of God Himself.

What does God think of that? It's not going to be good.

It takes a great deal of pride to think that you were so special that God picked you out B4 creation to be saved.

 

[atpollard]

He is longsuffering with them, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth.

That is not the "THEM" that verse is speaking about. Go back and see who God is longsuffering "for" (on account of). That is about Christ delaying his return to allow time for a complete harvest, not because God loves the tares that he will gather and burn at the end of the harvest (Matthew 13 analogy).

God may have a general love for all without exception, I am simply pointing out that the "longsuffering" verse in 2 Peter 3:9 is not about that (it is about something else).