Are We Born-Again Before Or After Faith?

[Layman]

Paul said in Eph. 1:13 that after we believed we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

I think we would all agree, or should, that receiving the Holy Spirit is the exact moment of our salvation.

I am in total agreement. However, it needs to be understood that the exact moment of one's salvation has already been decided and we experience that in time as time bound-creatures.

 

[Layman]

It all happens by sharing the Gospel with the Holy Spirit convicting of sin in the heart of the hearer.

Whether during preaching in a Church service or you sharing the Gospel somewhere on the street, the Holy Spirit uses that Gospel message there on the spot, piercing the heart with the truth of Jesus Christ.

Would you agree that some people aren't convicted of their sin after they hear? Why is that?

 

[Charlie24]

I am in total agreement. However, it needs to be understood that the exact moment of one's salvation has already been decided and we experience that in time as time bound-creatures.

Has it already been decided, or does God in His foreknowledge know when it will happen?

 

[Charlie24]

Would you agree that some people aren't convicted of their sin after they hear? Why is that?

Yes, I would agree that some aren't convicted of their sin.

They have rejected it so long and so many times, not only is their conscience seared, but God has handed them over to Satan for their destruction.

 

[Ben1445]

Brother @Silverhair asked me:


I don’t necessarily disagree with what was stated. There is no doubt that the Philippian jailer became born-again after he believed. However, one thing that needs to be understood by my synergist friends is that the ability to believe had to be given to him as a gift. Those whom God has decided to save will experience a born-again transformation at the appointed time.

First, I am not a synergist.
With the definition being,

1. The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects.
2. Cooperative interaction among groups, especially among the acquired subsidiaries or merged parts of a corporation, that creates an enhanced combined effect.

Salvation is a gift, not a co-op. I don’t know anyone who can apply these definitions to their theology.
If you have a different definition that you are already using, please share. Don’t go find one on my account.

Philippians 1:29 (ESV) - For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

1. An opportunity that would not be had He not given Himself for us. This verse need not exclusively mean that others are not granted to believe.
2. That is not the point that is being made. The point is that we are not believing a prosperity gospel. We have Ben given the gospel not only to believe but also to share and suffer on account of it if needs be.

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) - Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

Again the focus is not that they were given an exclusive faith. The point being made is that they are as much believers as the apostles. They are equals. (So much for the pope.)

1 Corinthians 12:8-9 (ESV) - For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit

If I had to pick one spiritual gift, salvation would be the one
These are gifts given to us by the Spirit because we are saved. The lineup of gifts should tell you (especially since it is not listed first and they are not all given to everyone, but instead, severally as He will).

The Bible makes it clear where faith comes from and it is not something that we can simply choose to have for ourselves.

Faith is an action. It is not physical activity but its existence is most often recognized by our behavior. Faith is believing. We are not talking about textbook doctrines as if copies could be handed out by the teacher, titled “My Baptist Faith.”
Faith is from God? I suggest to you that it is an irrelevant question.
What do you have that is not from God? Only what you must be saved from.
The real question that you should be putting forth is whether or not faith is exclusively and merely the rite of ability of a select group to place in Jesus Christ.
This is the real question. The idea you are pushing is that God has given to some people the ability to respond to Him, but has not given others the same ability or opportunity.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree that we hear, believe, and are saved, but the Bible also makes it clear that not every person without exception has the ability to believe after hearing. If He desires that all would come to faith, then logically they would. Are you saying that God isn't powerful enough to override someone's unbelief?

Actually what the bible says is that all can hear and respond, some with faith others with rejection.
As you know full well the bible does say that God desires all to come to repentance.
If He ove0rode someones free choices then He would be going against His stated desire.

You have to ask yourself why some people believe and others do not. I can use the same argument against you and say that God indirectly causes the lost to be forever damned if they reject the Gospel by their own free will. He could simply save them anyway, but He doesn't. By default, everyone is headed for damnation, and God would be just for leaving it at that. He shows mercy to some and not others. Is God wrong to do it that way?

Of course God sends people to hell that reject His son, that's biblical. But not according to the view that you hold. In the C/R view God has determined all those that will end up in hell. They do not have any option.

But I do notice that you then want to say well God shows mercy but the question is why does He show mercy? He is merciful to those that freely trust in His son. That is what it means to hear and respond to the gospel and God via His grace saves those that believe.

Even if all humanity went to hell He would still be God. But the bible tells us that He sent His son so that those that believe in Him would have eternal life, that takes a free will.

 

[Ben1445]

No Holy Scripture teaches before faith.
Ephesians 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . .

That is like saying that you are inside before you are through the door.

 

[Ben1445]

Among other things, it means of God, not of yourselves, or any other piece of flesh.

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT

[add]

You’ve no more say so in your spiritual birth than you did your physical birth.

It sounds cute but it’s not Scripture.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

They were told to repent or perish. Sounds like a free will choice to me!

 

[Ben1445]

Eph 1, does not start at vs.13. Eph.1 :3-14 is one sentence, it should be read as it is written.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This is not exactly a debatable statement. You believe and are sealed. With the Holy Spirit you are saved, without you are clearly not.

 

[kyredneck]

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Funny. Likewise, in like manner. Roman soldiers are going to come out the woodwork and utterly destroy those that don't repent? Acts 3:23

A little 'Preterist school of thought' would do you some good.

 

[Ben1445]

I agree that we hear, believe, and are saved, but the Bible also makes it clear that not every person without exception has the ability to believe after hearing.

Ability and desire are too often confused. I have worked with people who claim to have no ability to accomplish the work. They mean they have no desire.

Show me clearly by showing me someone who desires but has no ability.
That is not Scriptural though. You won’t find it. We don’t desire to seek God autonomously.
Jesus showed His love for us by giving Himself a ransom for all (For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.)

If He desires that all would come to faith, then logically they would.

Except for sin. Logically, you have forgotten your total depravity. If man is so terribly unable to recognize good, logically, He will more often miss the mark.

Are you saying that God isn't powerful enough to override someone's unbelief?

I’ll say it. Yes. For God to override unbelief and save an unbelieving sinner would be unjust and deny His own self.

You have to ask yourself why some people believe and others do not.

All people ask this question all the time. Like this, “What are they thinking?”
Answer:
1 Corinthians 2:11a
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?

I don’t know and you don’t either and it is futile to ask.

I can use the same argument against you and say that God indirectly causes the lost to be forever damned if they reject the Gospel by their own free will.

This is not an argument against. It is the argument. You only made one error in your statement of it. God doesn’t indirectly judge, He will say directly to each person who rejects the gospel, “Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.”

He could simply save them anyway, but He doesn't.

He doesn’t because that would not be free will.

By default, everyone is headed for damnation, and God would be just for leaving it at that.

True.

He shows mercy to some and not others.

By virtue of their own decisions and actions

Is God wrong to give every person the choice?

Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Those that love Him. Not those He chose to love Him.

 

[Ben1445]

Funny. Likewise, in like manner. Roman soldiers are going to come out the woodwork and utterly destroy those that don't repent? Acts 3:23

A little 'Preterist school of thought' would do you some good.

Except for all the Scripture that hasn’t been fulfilled.

 

[Ben1445]

Funny. Likewise, in like manner. Roman soldiers are going to come out the woodwork and utterly destroy those that don't repent? Acts 3:23

A little 'Preterist school of thought' would do you some good.

Funny is right. I would have expected you to say that this is a spiritual statement of their being broken off for the gentiles to be grafted in.

 

[Ben1445]

Would you agree that some people aren't convicted of their sin after they hear? Why is that?

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[kyredneck]

Except for all the Scripture that hasn’t been fulfilled.

Oh, "the wrath to come" most assuredly came upon 'that generation'.

I would have expected you to say that this is a spiritual statement of their being broken off for the gentiles to be grafted in.

Well, yeah. It indeed happened exactly that way.

Matthew Chapter 21

37​	But afterward he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38​	But the husbandmen, when they saw the son, said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and take his inheritance.
39​	And they took him, and cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him.
40​	When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41​	They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42​	Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43​	Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44​	And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45​	And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

If that's not being 'replaced', then I don't know the meaning of the word.

 

[Reynolds]

Brother @Silverhair asked me:


I don’t necessarily disagree with what was stated. There is no doubt that the Philippian jailer became born-again after he believed. However, one thing that needs to be understood by my synergist friends is that the ability to believe had to be given to him as a gift. Those whom God has decided to save will experience a born-again transformation at the appointed time.

Philippians 1:29 (ESV) - For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) - Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 12:8-9 (ESV) - For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit

The Bible makes it clear where faith comes from and it is not something that we can simply choose to have for

My belief differs from that of most Calvinists. I believe The Holy Spirit, through the Gospel, presents the elect sinner an irresistible call. That call awakens the deadness of that person and gives him the ability to believe the Gospel. The belief in The Gospel brings salvation.

 

[37818]

That is like saying that you are inside before you are through the door.

No. Going through the door is the faith.