Is Satan A Real Entity Who Can Influence English Language Translators and Subtlety Impact Their Translations

[JD731]

The Modern versions such as Nas/ERsv/Nkjv all teach same doctrines as the Kjv though

Where is the evidence for that?

 

[JD731]

God would desire that His word woulf get out into the common language of the people for that time, correct?

The practices of the end times churches are inconsistent with what we are taught about the ways of God over previous centuries. The prophecies concerning the end times condition of the church given to us for the most part in the pastoral epistles are consistent with what we are observing today.

You can reject that as being true, but it is true anyways.

 

[JonC]

You are saying, no, Satan has not influenced translators and subtly impact their translations for the reasons you give above.

My question would then be, why would a perfectly omniscience and holy God see a need to have his words translated in the same language, over and over in the last days of his age division? It does not make sense.

Have you ever read the prayers of the apostle to the gentiles, Paul, for us in his epistles. I will start a thread later on about what God desires for us in the way of knowledge of his word. Satan has no doubt read them and is involved in confusing it with divisions.

My answer is because words are symbols. They are symbols that communicate thoughts and ideas. A translation is a text in a target language that chooses the symbols of a new language to communicate what the source language communicated. God's Word is, therefore, not the human symbols themselves but what thise symbols communicate.

If one understands that English bibles are translations, and what words are, then one will be able to discern that legitimate translations are communicating the exact same Word of God.

Chriatians are not calle

Why several translations? Human limitations. Translation limitations. The command not to just read but study and devote oneself to God's Word.

We are better for having several English translations of Scripture. Satan is not in the business of making the Church better.


Now, I do see Satan active in movements like the King James Only movement, the LBGTQ Bible, etc. But not in communicating God's Word to people.

Satan did not, for example, give us the KJV. But Satan works in men who give him opportunity in such a way that men no longer grasp the concepts and make a translation an idol (they see the translated words but never God's Word). So Satan is not behind the KJV but he is behind the KJVO movement as the movement rather than the translation blinds men.

 

[JD731]

It is a subtle message the new denominations, the Methodists, Pentecostals, and Charismatics brought to us in the latter days of the church age. It was a works based approach to Christianity along with other confusing practices. These groups teach that one who has come to Christ for salvation must hold out faithful or they will lose it. Faith and works. This is not the gospel of Christ and it will not save anybody and we have the reaction of God in no uncertain terms.

Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

A message of a mixture of grace plus works is not the true gospel but is another gospel and elicits the strongest condemnation of scriptures for preaching it.

Now we have enough new Bibles that no one says they believe are from God and they cause no one to tremble when they read passages like Galatians 1. I am going to say Satan had something to do with both movements that began in America in 1901..

I feel I always have to say this. I do not believe a person is unsaved because they are affiliated with these churches. Saved people can be deceived and many are. If a person has ever been saved by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ they are saved eternally.

 

[JonC]

It is a subtle message the new denominations, the Methodists, Pentecostals, and Charismatics brought to us in the latter days of the church age. It was a works based approach to Christianity along with other confusing practices. These groups teach that one who has come to Christ for salvation must hold out faithful or they will lose it. Faith and works. This is not the gospel of Christ and it will not save anybody and we have the reaction of God in no uncertain terms.

Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

A message of a mixture of grace plus works is not the true gospel but is another gospel and elicits the strongest condemnation of scriptures for preaching it.

Now we have enough new Bibles that no one says they believe are from God and they cause no one to tremble when they read passages like Galatians 1. I am going to say Satan had something to do with both movements that began in America in 1901..

I feel I always have to say this. I do not believe a person is unsaved because they are affiliated with these churches. Saved people can be deceived and many are. If a person has ever been saved by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ they are saved eternally.

Theology does influence translations, I agree with that. But I disagree that theologies such as Wesleyan or Free-will theology changed God's Word (these theologies developed outside of modern translations and are actually supported by Scripture just as much as is Calvinistic interpretations).

My concern, with this topic, is more for those who have traded God's Word for an English translation of Scripture and ultimately make men and words into idols. I have o ly seen this with KJVO people, but I suppose it could happen more broadly as well.

I would still say that the King James Only movement is Satanic, but the King James translation itself is not. The readon are members of that cult cannot grasp God's Word because they are too focused on a translation of God's Word and ultimately condemn God's Word in other translations. I believe this confusion is brought by Satan but introduced by KJVO people leaning on a faulty understanding.

 

[Logos1560]

Saved people can be deceived and many are. If a person has ever been saved by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ they are saved eternally.

KJV-only advocates can be deceived, and many of them are as they choose to believe claims for the KJV that are not true and since they may choose to believe misleading and non-true accusations against other English Bibles that are based on use of divers measures [double standards].


Several leading arguments for a KJV-only view depend upon use of fallacies [false arguments] which may deceive believers into accepting weak and incorrect arguments. Believers may be deceived into believing that modern KJV-only opinions and traditions of men are a doctrine of God when they are not. The inconsistencies in human KJV-only reasoning results in confusion.

 

[David Lamb]

Whether one produced the other is an argument for later but the greater point for me is that about this time a transition in Christian thought and practice was being made that resulted in two extremes that greatly compromised the church of Jesus Christ and weakened it. It was intellectualism on the one hand and emotionalism on the other. Both were Satanic led attacks, that God permitted, and that negatively impacted the Scriptural authority of God's word.

Transition, you ask? God, in his providence is bringing about his design for world history of the nations and the church. This is prophesied to be a renewal, a restitution of all things, a regeneration to his original intent before sin corrupted all things. This includes his creation and his creatures in spite of work arounds that are needed because of wicked and deceived angels and men. There will be no charge against God when this is all over because he has not over ruled the will of men and angels and has permitted all to choose. This is accomplished because I have read the last two chapters in the holy scriptures that tells me this.

The fact that God is providentially in control of his creation and can and does permit transitions throughout history for his own purposes can be demonstrated from the KJV in this passage.

2 Thess 2: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

If Paul told them he told us because his words have been preserved. The time table is God's and the Spirit hinders Satan and wicked men from accomplishing their purposes outside that time frame.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thank you for y taking the trouble to reply. All I meant by my short post was that the Methodist Church cannot have been "birthed from the Keswick movement," because Methodism began in the mid-18th century, over a hundred years before the Keswick Movement started.

 

[JD731]

Thank you for y taking the trouble to reply. All I meant by my short post was that the Methodist Church cannot have been "birthed from the Keswick movement," because Methodism began in the mid-18th century, over a hundred years before the Keswick Movement started.

In keeping with the theme of my thread I will respond that the higher life developments of the movement was not a one time spontaneous event but developed slowly over time. It spawned a new Pentecost movement which quickly divided into new adaptations of the teachings that is yet ongoing. That is the way I see it. The one thing they all seem to have in common is a works based salvation gospel that they preach. If that is true then that persuasion would not come from God but the adversary. This movement began in America, the same year we began the parade of new easy reader Bibles. It may have been a coincidence but there could also have been a plan behind it. Either way it represented a transition from the status quo.

 

[JesusFan]

Where is the evidence for that?

Where have they denied essential doctrines though?

 

[JesusFan]

I don't think so.

The phrase "Let go and let God" is not attributed to a single person, but it is a popular expression rooted in the Keswick theology movement of the late 19th century. It encourages believers to trust in God's will and relinquish control of their lives to Him. While not a direct quote from the Bible, it reflects biblical principles of surrendering to God's guidance.

 

[JesusFan]

That's over-simplifying it.

True, but those who took on the Charasmatic Chaos were pretty much from those type of theological backgrounds, also including Wesleyan and Nazarene

 

[John of Japan]

In keeping with the theme of my thread I will respond that the higher life developments of the movement was not a one time spontaneous event but developed slowly over time. It spawned a new Pentecost movement which quickly divided into new adaptations of the teachings that is yet ongoing. That is the way I see it. The one thing they all seem to have in common is a works based salvation gospel that they preach. If that is true then that persuasion would not come from God but the adversary. This movement began in America, the same year we began the parade of new easy reader Bibles. It may have been a coincidence but there could also have been a plan behind it. Either way it represented a transition from the status quo.

I don't know where you are getting this.
1. The Keswick Movement, which you are calling a "higher life" movement, started in 1875 in the English town of Keswick, not America.
2. The speakers at the first yearly meeting were all solid evangelicals. Eventually, great fundamentalists such as Hudson Taylor and R. A. Torrey were speakers, with good men like A. B. Simpson, F. B. Meyer, and A. J. Gordon getting involved.
3. The soteriology was orthodox and evangelical. The Keswick Movement was never heretical in soteriology, never taught works salvation, or anything other than biblical salvation by grace through faith.
4. D. L. Moody became a supporter of the Keswick Movement. "Keswick was introduced back into the United States by Moody's Northfield convention" (Vinson Syman, ed., Donald Dayton's essay in Aspects of Pentecostal-Charismatic Origins, p. 47).
5. So there was a connection from Keswick theology to the Pentecostal movement, but it involved no heresy. There was no tongues speaking whatsoever in the Keswick Movement.

So, you really need to stop talking about the Keswick Movement until you actually learn the facts. It was not 100% good, I admit, because of Hannah Whitall Smith's teaching, but it was fundamentalist and conservative.

 

[JD731]

I don't know where you are getting this.
1. The Keswick Movement, which you are calling a "higher life" movement, started in 1875 in the English town of Keswick, not America.
2. The speakers at the first yearly meeting were all solid evangelicals. Eventually, great fundamentalists such as Hudson Taylor and R. A. Torrey were speakers, with good men like A. B. Simpson, F. B. Meyer, and A. J. Gordon getting involved.
3. The soteriology was orthodox and evangelical. The Keswick Movement was never heretical in soteriology, never taught works salvation, or anything other than biblical salvation by grace through faith.
4. D. L. Moody became a supporter of the Keswick Movement. "Keswick was introduced back into the United States by Moody's Northfield convention" (Vinson Syman, ed., Donald Dayton's essay in Aspects of Pentecostal-Charismatic Origins, p. 47).
5. So there was a connection from Keswick theology to the Pentecostal movement, but it involved no heresy. There was no tongues speaking whatsoever in the Keswick Movement.

So, you really need to stop talking about the Keswick Movement until you actually learn the facts. It was not 100% good, I admit, because of Hannah Whitall Smith's teaching, but it was fundamentalist and conservative.

I supplied the caveat, "as I see it" which makes it my opinion from what study I have done about it. I am sure these men you mentioned were not heretics and were no doubt better Christians than me. I am not speaking ill of them and DL Moody is a man who I have greatly admired during my life time. If, you want me to let you be the expert, then this post will be the last discussion I will have with you about it. I can be wrong about some of my own conclusions, and I admit it, but I am not wrong about the time line of the beginning of both the long string of English Bible translations in a matter of a short time and the beginning of the Pentecostal movement through which many of their denominations were birthed and developed, whatever the source and energy.

BTW, I did not say the Keswick Revival began in America but if I mistakenly made that claim, I apologize to you and any others who were led astray by my not being clear. I do make the claim that I know that Satan presents himself as an angel of light and he has a host of ministers who preach his gospel and we, the church, are warned of his subtlety. This is what this thread is about and still no one much has discussed it.

2 Cor 11:1 ¶ Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[JD731]

My answer is because words are symbols. They are symbols that communicate thoughts and ideas. A translation is a text in a target language that chooses the symbols of a new language to communicate what the source language communicated. God's Word is, therefore, not the human symbols themselves but what thise symbols communicate.

This might be true in your classroom but it is not true in the scriptures. The scriptures are written in words chosen by God that will hide it's truths from the unsaved while instructing those who have been born of his Spirit and who will diligently search out it's truths. The gospel is simple to understand and is preached from saved men to unsaved men but the doctrines are taught by the Spirit to men who have been born again. Jesus said in Jn 6:63 "the words I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life." You could write a hundred and fifty more English Bibles and it will not help. It is confusion because it is the exaltation of men at the expense of the glory of God.

 

[JD731]

Where have they denied essential doctrines though?

Define essential doctrine as you see it and then lets compare and talk.

 

[JD731]

Interesting that KJVO keep bashing on modern versions, yet EVERY member on the translation teams for nas/Esv/Niv/Nkjv etc agree to inspiration and inerrancy of the originals, to the essential doctrines of the faith etc

Why footnotes and guess work in inerrant Bibles? Are we still dealing with commonly accepted definitions of words? Do we have doubts about our inerrant manuscripts?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

This person, if he is real, needs to be discussed in the context of Bible translations and dynamic equivalences and paraphrases, because if he is real, he has skin in the game.

From my post at: Why do you think that by Sowing Changes to the Meanings in God's Word, has Reaped such a Harvest?

Is it O.K., for me to think this?

And for me to want to ask this question?

Do you think that;
by sowing the acceptance of men changing God's Word,
in the instances of them changing the meaning
and definitions of His Words in the Bible
(and thereby, for example, attempting to disannul
and make void and ineffectual
His instructions on How to Worship Him,
into a practically unknowable, indiscernible
series of words written that mean nothing)
has reaped a harvest
of a Lot of Things being Changed and Omitted?

What could possibly go wrong?

Is the Bible still in pretty good shape after all this?

After all, there is a practical universal acknowledgment
and acceptance given to these heavily altered
and edited versions of the Bible,
which were the result of initiating the highly suspect intention
of translating new copies of the Bible,
"as if it were any other book",

using highly suspect original text manuscripts,
by highly suspect translators,
and employing highly suspect philosophies of translation,
and methods of determining and settling changes in the wording,
with the resulting end product being, what Helena Petrovna Blavatsky,
the editor of, LUCIFER A Theosophical Magazine,
(DESIGNED TO “BRING TO LIGHT
THE HIDDEN THINGS OF DARKNESS.”
EDITED BY H. P. BLAVATSKY AND MABEL COLLINS)
was very happy to say that we finally had,
"the very Word of God, in truth"?

I didn't say they didn't have the Word of God in them,

I said that:
Helena Blavatsky said they were "the very Word of God, in truth".

What could go wrong?

Is everything still O.K., between us and God?

What does He think about all of this?

Has anyone asked Him?

Have you?

That doesn't seem like the worst idea in the world.

Acknowledging and Consulting,
and Invoking God's participation and involvement
in the whole scheme of things.

In prayer.

I just haven't seen much indication of that taking place
or the inclination to consider it, or Him.

It's His Word, isn't it?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

There was a definite transition in the providence of God and things took a real change during those days and the Christian church has been adversely affected. It is a test of our faithfulness to God and his Bible.

From my post at: Why do you think that by Sowing Changes to the Meanings in God's Word, has Reaped such a Harvest?

And when will B.), be addressed?

B.) how the modern version's alterations, omissions, and reshapings
are migrating ever closer and similar to their sister translations*,
The New World Translation and The Douay-Rheims Bible, etc.

*from the same manuscripts.

below from: H.P. Blavatsky said, "we have the Bible in true in Codex Sinaiticus (א) and Codex Vaticanus (B)"

The statements below, in pink, indicate
the plans of these particular individuals
who intended to produce a version of the Bible to replace The KJV.

H.P. Blavatsky says, "we have the Bible in true
in Codex Sinaiticus (א) and Codex Vaticanus (B)"

"So, along with their hatred of the KJV
and plans intended to produce a version to replace it,

"the professed and proud Occultists Manly P. Hall and H.P. Blavatsky
love the Codex Sinaiticus (א) and Codex Vaticanus (B)."

A favorable website to Madame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky says,

"Against the background of her writings and teachings,
her life and character, her mission and occult powers,

"H.P. Blavatsky is destined to be recognized in time
as the greatest Occultist in the history of Western civilization
and a direct agent of the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood of Adepts."

Then, there are:

Madame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky's

connections to Westcott & Hort:

"H. P. Blavatsky also attended the "Ghostly Guild" meetings

with Westcott and Hort, along with Charles Darwin.

In her books Isis Unveiled Vol. 1 and 2,
and The Secret Doctrine Vol. 1 and 2,
Blavatsky says, "we have the Bible in true
in Codex Sinaiticus (א) and Codex Vaticanus (B)"

"and goes on to say "Westcott and Hort were true scholars
that corrected the errors in previous versions."
Blavatsky also said that Westcott was the father of "channeling."

con't

King James Bible
"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it,
do not cease to pray for you,
and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will
in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Colossians 1:9"

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

he does exist in the character in which he is presented by the scriptures, the next question is, Has he ever influenced any English Language translations and how would we know?

From: Why do you think that by Sowing Changes to the Meanings in God's Word, has Reaped such a Harvest?

"Some of the followers of Blavatsky also claimed

to be under the control of spirits through automatic writing, etc.
In 1891, Annie Besant (1847-1933) succeeded Blavatsky
as head of the Theosophical Society.

"The English translation (Authorized Version--KJV)
is wretchedly imperfect.

"Errors abound in it, and some of them
are of a most laughable description.

"On this account,
great calls have been made for the new translation..."

(Charles Bradlaugh, Annie Wood Besant, Charles Watts,
The Freethinker's Text-book, 1876)
Click to expand...
"Another influential occult writer is Manly Palmer Hall.

Notice the following short biography of this self-professed
and proud Satanic writer:

"Manly P. Hall often wrote against the King James Bible.

He sometimes slandered it with historical lies, but his main goal
(like the earlier necromancers)
was to oppose the popular view of its infallibility!:

"The King James version is especially rich in errors..."
(Manly P. Hall, Reincarnation: The cycle of Necessity, 1956)

"We know that the Authorized Version by no means satisfies
the requirements of advanced Biblical scholarship..."
(Manly P. Hall, Horizon, Issue 9. Vol. 1, 1949)
"...we have to undo much that is a cherished error.
The problem of revising the Bible shows how difficult is to do this.

"For the last hundred years, we have been trying
to get out an edition of the Bible that is reasonably correct;
but nobody wants it."
(Manly P. Hall, Horizon, Philosophical Research Society, 1944)

"What book did Hall (who boasted of having the keys

to channeling the power of Lucifer)
call one of the great books of the world?

"It was one of the principal manuscripts issued by all modern versions,

and many modern scholars to supposedly "correct" the King James Bible!:
"The Codex Sinaiticus".

Then, Manly P. Hall said, "The Codex Sinaiticus

is a manuscript of the 4th Century...

This manuscript is one of the great books of the world,...
it is sufficiently important to justify considerable revision
of our popular conception of the Scriptural writings."

King James Bible
"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it,
do not cease to pray for you,
and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will
in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Colossians 1:9"

Reference: What's going on there? I was Wonderin about C.), below. Any Clue?

What is the "King James Superiority" position vs the Ruckmanite KJVO position?

The list of beliefs below in red bold describe the KJVO position of Peter Ruckman and are seen by the proponents of the KJV Superiority position to be utterly indefensible and unbelievable, along with it's synonyms, astonishing, implausible, impossible, inconceivable, outlandish, incredible, and...

www.baptistboard.com

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Luke 4:4

KJV: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

LSB: And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

NWT: But Jesus replied to him: "It is written, 'Man must not live by bread alone.'"

NAB: Jesus answered him, "Scripture has it, 'Not on bread alone shall man live.'"

Now that was truly Satan's work. He hates the Bible and does all he can to prevent its translation and publication.

2 Cor 11:1 ¶ Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.