First, will you accept that we have no words from God except those words that came from that person who we now know as God the Father, who resides in heaven?
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Is Satan A Real Entity Who Can Influence English Language Translators and Subtlety Impact Their Translations
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Article 10 of the "Chicago Statement on Inerrancy", for example, says, "We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original."
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
A typical example of your overenthusiasm when it comes to your lust in the flesh to devour the King James Version at all times,
even if you have to forget having any attention to detail and referencing in a way that's crooked.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Here are three lists of hundreds of bible versions if you care to check them out.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.soulwinning.info/bible/bible_versions_since_1881.pdf
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
The OT scriptures were written in Hebrew, except a small amount in Daniel. For the entire 656 years before the flood all people on earth spoke the same language.
Ge 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Ge 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
Hebrews became the Jews national language. All the peoples divided into nations according to their languages and spread through the whole world.
The Hebrew nation eventually rebelled against God and were driven into other nations and learned their languages, all speaking different languages. But the kingdom of God can have only one language because when they are nationally converted to Christ they will be seen corporately by God as ONE man (see Ex 4). During the days of Jesus Christ on earth, the covenant people were in basically three locations, Egypt, Asia Minor, and Judah.
Obviously, if God sent his son to die for this nation and pay for their sins and rise from the dead, there must be a season to let them know that all things are now ready, come and receive your kingdom. There could not be just a percentage of them come because he says this;
Ac 2:37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter would say this in his next sermon;
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Now here is where I am getting to; God demonstrated his power to translate his word through his prophets so all heard the same things. This was at the feast of Pentecost in Acts 2. Seventeen languages were represented there that day and God was in charge of the translation committee. You have to see this;
17 nations.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
It meaneth that God is able to translate his word into at least 17 different languages at the same time and they all hear the same things. He is the God of perfect translating without the help of scholarly men who are much too proud of themselves.
I have much more to brag on God about but I am not suppose to have long posts and I understand that. But, once I found out that God can translate his words perfectly over languages I am no longer going to listen to you men saying he cannot do it.
God sent his men to Judah and Jerusalem to tell them that were bidden to come because supper is ready and it is the end of the day. He did this for seven years but they would not come. The end of 7 years was at the end of Acts 7 and Jesus then sent his men to search for new guests so his house might be full. This is all a matter of prophesy in the gospels and fulfilled in the Acts.
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
The problem with that is that there are several words in the KJV which, while still used today, now have a completely different meaning to what they had in 1611. Here are a few examples: "carriages" (in the KJV means "equipment," in current English refers to a passenger waggon on a railway, or a horse-drawn conveyance), "prevent" (in the KJV means "go before," in current English means "stop something happening," "conversation" in the KJV meant "manner of life," in current English it refers to two people talking together). Such words can give the wrong idea about what the bible means, and unlike words which are no longer used today, the reader won't know that he needs to look them up.
Your accusation is false. My effort is to present the truth concerning the KJV, my preferred English Bible translation.
I make no attempt "to devour" the KJV as you falsely allege.
You prove nothing "crooked" in my accurate information concerning the KJV translators and concerning King James.
Your response and accusations are improper and wrong.
Examples of this type of words may include the following: nephews (1 Tim. 5:4, Jud. 12:14, Job 18:19) used to mean grandchildren or direct descendants, carriages (Acts 21:15, 1 Sam. 17:22, Judges 18:21, Isaiah 10:28, Isaiah 64:1) used for baggage, let (2 Thess. 2:7, Rom. 1:13) used with the meaning hinder, prevent (1 Thess. 4:15) used to mean precede, turtle (Jer. 8:7) used for dove or turtledove, rank (Gen. 41:5) used to mean strong or healthy, leasing (Ps. 5:6) used to mean falsehoods or lies, health (Ps. 42:11) used with the meaning of salvation, deliverance, or help, rid (Ps. 144:7) used to mean deliver or rescue, tired (2 Kings 9:30) used with the meaning attired or adorned, take no thought (Matt. 6:25) used with the meaning of be not troubled or anxious, hard (Acts 18:7) used with the meaning of close or near, bravery (Isa. 3:18) used with the meaning splendor, magnificence, or beauty, harness (1 Kings 22:34) used with the meaning armor, bunches (Isa. 30:6) used with the meaning humps of camels, and mansions (John 14:2) used with the meaning abode (John 14:23) or dwelling places.
More examples may include: road (1 Sam. 27:10) used to mean raid, power (2 Chron. 32:9) used with the meaning army, wealth (1 Cor. 10:24) meaning welfare or well-being, tablets (Exod. 35:22, Num. 31:50) meaning ornaments or some type of jewelry, alleging (Acts 17:3) meaning proving or giving evidence, instantly (Acts 26:7) meaning earnestly, listed (Matt. 17:12) meaning desired or wanted, grudging (1 Peter 4:9) meaning murmuring, once (Jer. 13:27) meaning ever, out of hand (Num. 11:15) meaning at once or immediately, apparently (Num. 12:8) meaning plainly or clearly, several (2 Kings 15:5) meaning separate, go beyond (1 Thess. 4:6) meaning transgress, inward (Job 9:9) meaning intimate or close, and light (Jud. 9:4, Zeph. 3:4) meaning reckless.
Some commonly used prepositions in the KJV may also be sometimes used in an uncommon or archaic way or sense. Concerning prepositions, J. B. Lightfoot (1828-1889) wrote: “The misunderstandings which arise in the mind of an English readers are due in most passages rather to the archaisms than to the error of the translators. Where, in common language, we now say ‘by’ and ‘through’ (i.e., ‘by means of’) respectively, our translators, following the diction of their age, generally use ‘of’ and ‘by’ respectively—‘of’ denoting the agent, and ‘by’ the instrument or means” (Fresh Revision, p. 107). J. B. Lightfoot asserted: “From these archaisms great ambiguity arises. When we hear ‘it was said of him,’ we understand at once ‘about or concerning him,’ but this is not the meaning which this preposition bears in our New Testament. And again, when we read ‘it was sent by me,’ we understand ‘I sent it,’ but neither again is this the meaning intended. In the modern language ‘by’ represents the sender, whereas in the old it denotes the bearer of the letter or parcel” (p. 108). J. B. Lightfoot claimed: “In all such passages the ambiguous ‘by’ is a serious obstacle to the understanding of the English reader” (p. 110).
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Then there are the British English words like corn:
At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. (Matthew 12:1)
Americans' minds might immediately go to the corn that in the song was "as high as an elephant's eye," but in British English corn refers to cereal grain in general. And the British English word used for male chicken seems only to be used as a rude word in the USA:
Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. (Matthew 26:34)
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
You want to know:
No one said they were.
You twist things often more than a Wicker chair. I'll point them out, with zero anticipation for you to give up your cheapness and/or ignorance.
You do not prove that I twisted anything. You did not point out anything that I supposedly twisted. You fail to correct your false accusations.
The statement in your own post from David Otis Fuller suggested concerning the committee who made the KJV that "some were imprisoned." The "some" would refer back to the committee of the KJV. Did you not read and understand what you posted? Your own post shows that nothing was twisted.
Here is what you posted: "There have been many versions of the Holy Scriptures since the KING JAMES VERSION was published but not one committee of these versions has suffered for their faith except the committee of the KING JAMES VERSION. Some were imprisoned or threatened with imprisonment. "
Edited by David Otis Fuller
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Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
You want to know:
I'm familiar with the 50,000,000 martyrs who were tortured and died for their beliefs.
They suffered worse under the 10 great persecutions, of course, than the KJV translators at that time, even by you under your reign.
"In Western Europe, from 1524 to 1648, religious wars continuously roared on between Roman Catholics and Protestants:
We have the Eighty Years’ War in the Lowlands (1568–1648), the French Wars of Religion (1562–1598),
The Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648) and the English Civil War (1642–1651).
"These civil and international wars annihilated national and daily being; populations suffered and diminished. Losses in the millions were not uncommon during those years: three million people died during the Crusades, the great war between Christianity and Islam.
"At the same time, clergy and scholars were waging a hot war over Bible translation. The clergy wished to maintain exclusive knowledge of the text while scholars sought to open the Bible to the common reader. These scholars, however, even if they were professors at Oxford or Cambridge, were completely unprotected by their institutions. One of these men was John Wyclif (ca. 1330–1384), master of Balliol College at Oxford. Wyclif, known as the “flower of Oxford scholarship,” ventured the first translation of the Bible into English. Poor sap — to be so virtuous and courageous! Wyclif actually knew no Hebrew or Greek, so he relied on Saint Jerome’s Latin Vulgate to make his way. This blasphemous act — making the Bible heard and read in common English, not Latin — made him a criminal."
"In 1401, Archbishop Arundel fumed at Wyclif: “The pearl of the Gospel is scattered abroad and trodden underfoot by swine. […] This pestilent and wretched John Wyclif, of cursed memory, that son of the old serpent!” Wyclif only escaped prosecution by dying just in time. His Oxford colleagues however were all burned alive. Even 40 years after his death, his bones were dug up, burned, and thrown into the River Swift. And yet, in some ways, he had the last laugh. After his death, Wyclif’s manuscripts were twice as popular as Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales. (Lordy, what he endured in life!)
"A century later, linguist William Tyndale translated scripture directly from Hebrew and Greek into English: a mammoth “do not.” Tyndale followed and imitated the scholar Erasmus, saying that he wished “the word to reach the eyes of all women, Scots and Irishmen, even Turks and Saracens, and especially the farm worker at the plow and the weaver at the loom.” Tyndale was roundly denounced.
"Sir Thomas More scorned the traitor: “The devilish drunken soul […] this drowsy drudge hath drunken so deep in the devil’s dregs that if he wake and repent himself the sooner he may hap, ere aught long, to fall into the mashing-vat, and turn himself into draf, as the hogs of hell shall feed upon.” (It’s surely worth dying to enjoy such magnificent slander.)
"Tyndale did at least manage to translate most of the New Testament into beautiful common English by 1525, but he did not live to finish his overall project. Henry VIII decided that Tyndale had violated canon law: Latin alone was the accepted tongue for scripture in translation. While Tyndale was perfecting his knowledge of Hebrew to bequeath us the Old Testament (the Tanakh) he was captured by Henry’s troops.
"Tyndale was then strangled and burned at the stake. Horribly, Tyndale’s death was sentenced by the king who would eventually legalize the translation of the Bible into vernacular English. Once Henry converted to Protestantism and established the Church of England, it became okay to translate Bible into English — as Luther did into vernacular German.
"The dead Tyndale was not only the king’s hero, but the Tyndale Bible also became the most popular book in England.
"Once the Church of England came to dominate the empire, it established a measure of peace, if not Catholic freedom or joy.
"When King James ordered 47 translators to work on a new translation of the Bible, they completed their work without fear. Of course, those translators gave us the magnificent King James Version of the Bible, which was completed in 1611.
"Like Shakespeare’s plays, the King James is a vast source of story, thought, and speech, and it is further proof of the skill of the people AND THE GOD Who shaped it: the Great Translator Creates Great Literature."
Do you ignore and avoid the fact that the King James translators worked without being overtly concerned about being hanged or burned at the stake, which could have changed for them any instant, while they worked during a time of extraordinary violence and tension? Yes, of course.
"In Western Europe, from 1524 to 1648, religious wars continuously roared on between Roman Catholics and Protestants:
we have the Eighty Years’ War in the Lowlands (1568–1648), the French Wars of Religion (1562–1598),
The Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648), and the English Civil War (1642–1651)."
This is the part where I would try to lean away from crucifying the KJV translators, but I have to ASK MYSELF IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?, because if not, it's all over to no avail before it even starts.
Rule #1.) The preferred, if not only, position you bring to the table to try and bolster other people's views of the 'modern bibles' is what?
What else is there? You systematically plaster and inundate the King James Battleship with your barrage of weak, crumpling spitballs.
Rule #2.) KJVO proponents hold an entirely untenable = undefendable position, or 8 or 9, so to you, everyone is a defenceless KJVO Nutcase.
Equals: You're winning and life is just great googly moogly. And you are probably paid by 'modern bible' supporters. You've never denied it.
Never mind the point the author of the article mentioned about the 'modern bible' translators working in a relatively peaceful environment.
Never mind.
No one said they were.
I'm a BAPTIST child of those who perished in the flames and those who Luther and Calvin saw to it were executed for their faith, didn't they?
I'm familiar with the 50,000,000 martyrs who were tortured and died for their beliefs.
They suffered worse under the 10 great persecutions, of course, than the KJV translators at that time, even by you under your reign.
"In Western Europe, from 1524 to 1648, religious wars continuously roared on between Roman Catholics and Protestants:
We have the Eighty Years’ War in the Lowlands (1568–1648), the French Wars of Religion (1562–1598),
The Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648) and the English Civil War (1642–1651).
"These civil and international wars annihilated national and daily being; populations suffered and diminished. Losses in the millions were not uncommon during those years: three million people died during the Crusades, the great war between Christianity and Islam.
"At the same time, clergy and scholars were waging a hot war over Bible translation. The clergy wished to maintain exclusive knowledge of the text while scholars sought to open the Bible to the common reader. These scholars, however, even if they were professors at Oxford or Cambridge, were completely unprotected by their institutions. One of these men was John Wyclif (ca. 1330–1384), master of Balliol College at Oxford. Wyclif, known as the “flower of Oxford scholarship,” ventured the first translation of the Bible into English. Poor sap — to be so virtuous and courageous! Wyclif actually knew no Hebrew or Greek, so he relied on Saint Jerome’s Latin Vulgate to make his way. This blasphemous act — making the Bible heard and read in common English, not Latin — made him a criminal."
"In 1401, Archbishop Arundel fumed at Wyclif: “The pearl of the Gospel is scattered abroad and trodden underfoot by swine. […] This pestilent and wretched John Wyclif, of cursed memory, that son of the old serpent!” Wyclif only escaped prosecution by dying just in time. His Oxford colleagues however were all burned alive. Even 40 years after his death, his bones were dug up, burned, and thrown into the River Swift. And yet, in some ways, he had the last laugh. After his death, Wyclif’s manuscripts were twice as popular as Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales. (Lordy, what he endured in life!)
"A century later, linguist William Tyndale translated scripture directly from Hebrew and Greek into English: a mammoth “do not.” Tyndale followed and imitated the scholar Erasmus, saying that he wished “the word to reach the eyes of all women, Scots and Irishmen, even Turks and Saracens, and especially the farm worker at the plow and the weaver at the loom.” Tyndale was roundly denounced.
"Sir Thomas More scorned the traitor: “The devilish drunken soul […] this drowsy drudge hath drunken so deep in the devil’s dregs that if he wake and repent himself the sooner he may hap, ere aught long, to fall into the mashing-vat, and turn himself into draf, as the hogs of hell shall feed upon.” (It’s surely worth dying to enjoy such magnificent slander.)
"Tyndale did at least manage to translate most of the New Testament into beautiful common English by 1525, but he did not live to finish his overall project. Henry VIII decided that Tyndale had violated canon law: Latin alone was the accepted tongue for scripture in translation. While Tyndale was perfecting his knowledge of Hebrew to bequeath us the Old Testament (the Tanakh) he was captured by Henry’s troops.
"Tyndale was then strangled and burned at the stake. Horribly, Tyndale’s death was sentenced by the king who would eventually legalize the translation of the Bible into vernacular English. Once Henry converted to Protestantism and established the Church of England, it became okay to translate Bible into English — as Luther did into vernacular German.
"The dead Tyndale was not only the king’s hero, but the Tyndale Bible also became the most popular book in England.
"Once the Church of England came to dominate the empire, it established a measure of peace, if not Catholic freedom or joy.
"When King James ordered 47 translators to work on a new translation of the Bible, they completed their work without fear. Of course, those translators gave us the magnificent King James Version of the Bible, which was completed in 1611.
"Like Shakespeare’s plays, the King James is a vast source of story, thought, and speech, and it is further proof of the skill of the people AND THE GOD Who shaped it: the Great Translator Creates Great Literature."
Your default position on every subject is to slam the King James Bible and its translators into a headlock until you figure they're choked out.
Do you ignore and avoid the fact that the King James translators worked without being overtly concerned about being hanged or burned at the stake, which could have changed for them any instant, while they worked during a time of extraordinary violence and tension? Yes, of course.
"In Western Europe, from 1524 to 1648, religious wars continuously roared on between Roman Catholics and Protestants:
we have the Eighty Years’ War in the Lowlands (1568–1648), the French Wars of Religion (1562–1598),
The Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648), and the English Civil War (1642–1651)."
This is the part where I would try to lean away from crucifying the KJV translators, but I have to ASK MYSELF IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?, because if not, it's all over to no avail before it even starts.
Rule #1.) The preferred, if not only, position you bring to the table to try and bolster other people's views of the 'modern bibles' is what?
What else is there? You systematically plaster and inundate the King James Battleship with your barrage of weak, crumpling spitballs.
Rule #2.) KJVO proponents hold an entirely untenable = undefendable position, or 8 or 9, so to you, everyone is a defenceless KJVO Nutcase.
Equals: You're winning and life is just great googly moogly. And you are probably paid by 'modern bible' supporters. You've never denied it.
Never mind the point the author of the article mentioned about the 'modern bible' translators working in a relatively peaceful environment.
Never mind.
Incorrect. Your quotation from David Otis Fuller claimed that some of them were imprisoned. Your own post proves that you made a false accusation against me. Did you not even read what you yourself had posted?
Here is what you posted: "There have been many versions of the Holy Scriptures since the KING JAMES VERSION was published but not one committee of these versions has suffered for their faith except the committee of the KING JAMES VERSION. Some were imprisoned or threatened with imprisonment. "
Edited by David Otis Fuller
You close your eyes to the clear, documented proof that several of the KJV translators were involved in persecuting people for their faith, even torturing one.
Along with your carnal smear tactics, you improperly try to put words in my mouth that I do not say. You invent rules that are not mine. Never mind that you disobey a clear command of God by bearing false witness since you reveal a clear disregard for the truth.
Again:
None other than John Calvin attacked Bible translator (into French) Sebastian Castellio along these very lines!
A preface in the Calvin-approved Bible de Genève warned against rival translations, and defamed Bible translator Sebastian Castellio in particular as an 'instrument of Satan' in his efforts:
Gallica ❧ Le Nouveau Testament....Reveu & corrigé de nouveau sur le grec, par l'advis des ministres de Geneve
“Car au lieu qu’un temps a esté’qu’il n’y auoit point de translation Françoise de l’Escripture, au moins qui meritast ce nom: maintenant Satan a trouué autant de translateurs qu’il y a d’esprits legers & oultrecuidez qui manient les Escriptures: & trouuera encores desormais de plus en plus, si Dieu n’y pouruoit par sa grace. Si on en demande quelque exemple, nous en produirons vn qui seruira pour plusieurs, c’est a scauoir la translation de la Bible Latine & Francoise en auant par Sebastian Chastillon, homme si bien cognu en ceste Eglise tant par son ingratitude & impudence, que par la peine qu’on a per due apres luy pour le reduire au bon chemin, que nous ferions conscience, non seulement de taire son nom (comme iusques ici nous auons fait) mais aussi de n’aduertir tous Chrestiens de se garder d’vn tel personnage, comme instrument choisi de Satan pour amuser tous esprits volages & indiscrets.”
None other than John Calvin attacked Bible translator (into French) Sebastian Castellio along these very lines!
A preface in the Calvin-approved Bible de Genève warned against rival translations, and defamed Bible translator Sebastian Castellio in particular as an 'instrument of Satan' in his efforts:
Gallica ❧ Le Nouveau Testament....Reveu & corrigé de nouveau sur le grec, par l'advis des ministres de Geneve
“Car au lieu qu’un temps a esté’qu’il n’y auoit point de translation Françoise de l’Escripture, au moins qui meritast ce nom: maintenant Satan a trouué autant de translateurs qu’il y a d’esprits legers & oultrecuidez qui manient les Escriptures: & trouuera encores desormais de plus en plus, si Dieu n’y pouruoit par sa grace. Si on en demande quelque exemple, nous en produirons vn qui seruira pour plusieurs, c’est a scauoir la translation de la Bible Latine & Francoise en auant par Sebastian Chastillon, homme si bien cognu en ceste Eglise tant par son ingratitude & impudence, que par la peine qu’on a per due apres luy pour le reduire au bon chemin, que nous ferions conscience, non seulement de taire son nom (comme iusques ici nous auons fait) mais aussi de n’aduertir tous Chrestiens de se garder d’vn tel personnage, comme instrument choisi de Satan pour amuser tous esprits volages & indiscrets.”