Has God Ordained a certain style for Musical worship?

[JonC]

Not really. It doesn't have quite the right backbeat to be rock. It has an interesting double emphasis on the 1 & 3, then the 1nd & 4th notes of 4/4 time.

But it is certainly repetitive, a characteristic of rock. The words are nice, theologically correct. However, they don't hold a candle to the depth and theology of "How Great Thou Art." I mean, one verse, repeated, instead of four? Traditional hymns are much better at teaching theology.

Rather than rock, it is copying the style of the modern pop diva, in my humble but educated opinion.

Those groups are classified as "hard rock," not just rock. There is also soft rock, folk rock, country rock, CCM rock, etc. But they all have the same musical elements.

But that is the music I was soeaking of (Contemporary Worship music).

I doubt most Christians analyze the back beat or time before deciding if a song is suitable for worship.

You are missing the purpose of contemporary worship music style. I am not an expert, but I have a friend who is.

Have you noticed that contemporary worship music is pretty much comprised of common and fairly simple accompanying music? Have you noticed that it often uses repetition (similar to psalms)? Have you noticed how it seems to focus on specific passages ratger than wide or experiential themes (not the experience of a convert on a slave ship, or finding most of your family perished at sea)?

The reason is that contemporary worship music is focused on the congregation worshipping God. It is designed to be easily sung and easily played. It does what hymns did a century ago for a people who identify with the dullness of hymnal music (not the hymns themselves) as I identify with The Platters.


The funny thing here is churches that worship God together singing contemporary worship music do not condemn churches who use traditional hymns. But so many churches who use traditional hymns are quick to condemn their brethren for not adopting their style of music (not saying thats you). That is one reason I would lean towards contemporary worship styles.

Another issue that one does not have to be a formally trained musician or musically trained for contemporary worship music. Very few chords, for example. It is less a show (less having one life at church and another driving down the road). I like the genuineness of it, I guess you could say.

 

[John of Japan]

Ahhh....stop putting words in my mouth. I never claimed to be a musician. My education is limited (about 6 years of paino and of course a few music appreciation courses in college).Do you believe that in order to have an opinion about music one must be a formally trained musician?

You are, 9f course, wrong and you should have known better given your background with languages.

I asked. I didn't state. It's much more polite to make a query rather than declare, "This is what you believe..." or simply assume what someone thinks.

Christian Rock is a subcategory of rock music. It is rock music with a Christian theme.

CCM is a broader category that includes the music styles of pop, rock, R&B, acappella, gospel and country.

The Gaither Vocal Band perforns CCM. They wouldn't be confused with Christian Rock.

I wouldn't include country music as CCM. It has a much longer history, and has been a genre of its own far before CCM was invented. And the Gaithers sing a wide variety: country style Christian songs, hymns (with Bill's signature style), and CCM. Once in a while they will come up with something like what I have defined as rock, but not often.

There is, of course, country rock.

My answer was to move from your fixation on rock music as too many generas fit in (country music fits your definition, for example) to worship music.

I do not care if a congregation worships with Christian rock, Christian country, spoken word, or hymns. They need to worship in spirit and truth, not adopt music styles they believe are pipious. Christians do not, for example ample, have to get rid of pianos because they are relatively new to Christian worship.

I am grateful that churches abandoned the traditional music accompanying hymns in favor of corporate worship they found uplifting to the members of the congregation. Christians need to worship in an honest manner. Their worship needs to be a genuine expression, not simply following a tradition handed down a couple of centuries. This may be hymns, this may be Christian rock, this may be Contemporary Worship music, this may be Christian country.

You are wrong about the church not being primarily about worship. All we do is an act of worship. This includes discipleship. This includes singing. This includes serving others. This includes uplifting one another. This includes evangelism.

Fine. Give me some Scripture to back up what you say, or at a minimum interact with my Scripture (Eph. 4:10-11), which is very clear about the duties of church leadership being training the believers for ministry. Simply you declaring something doesn't make it so. (You seem to do that a lot. )

And define worship. There are various NT words translated worship, some of which do not fit what you wrote. For example, the most common NT word for "worship" is the verb proskuneo (προσκυνέω), meaning to physically bow down. So, what do you mean by "worship"?

And what in the world is pipious??

 

[Some Rando]

Traditional hymns are much better at teaching theology.

Some are.
Many are trash.
Many are self-focused.
I can think of a few:

In the garden is just an old-timer's version of: "Jesus is my boyfriend" music, for instance, and is a direct contradiction of Christ's words in
John 16 :5-10
Away in a manger is docetism.
My understanding is that it was initially used as a lullaby and inexplicably got added to hymnals. That may or may not be true. The line I object to is "The cattle are lowing the baby awakes, but little Lord Jesus no crying he makes."
I'll fly away plays extremely fast and loose with what the Scriptures reveal upon physical death, places no emphasis on the Resurrection, and is as self-centered a song as I can imagine.

I don't dislike hymns:
My favourite of all time is probably There is a Fountain.
I like that the emphasis of "How Great Thou Art" is on Glorifying God himself for who he is, although I don't personally like it too much otherwise (it's hard to sing)
One of my favorite songs by the old Quartet Newsong is "Because of who you are" and that is what I like about "How Great thou Art".

The music I dislike the most is music which is centered upon self, our own feelings, or what we can get out of God.
A lot of Southern Gospel (which I love) is particularly guilty of this. Especially the OLDER Southern Gospel. Furthermore it tended to have rather vapid Theology also.

I do also know of a lot of Christian Rock that has more depth and Theology than many or most traditional hymns.
I can think of the older music of Petra, (hard rock) Altar Boys (punk) Deliverance (Heavy Metal) which often has extremely deep Theology and often it is subject matter which, whilst quite Biblical, is often ignored in most classic hymnals.

I genuinely believe "style" is not particularly relevant, although there are settings where a certain form of music would be non-God-glorifying to play. By way of example: While I think it is a fantastic song, I would not subject your lovely bride to a high-decibel presentation of This Means War by Petra or Weapons of our Warfare by Deliverance. She would HATE it, I don't doubt, and what would make it not glorifying to God isn't the song itself, but the setting and the lack of consideration for the worshipers gathered. I don't know the particular song you were referencing at your supporting church but, if it caused (and could also reasonably be thought to cause or likely cause) your wife real physical discomfort, I would agree it did not honor God.

I love many of the old hymns, but, let us never let them become sacred cows (not suggesting you do). That is how the modern Church falls into idolatry.

 

[John of Japan]

Some are.
Many are trash.
Many are self-focused.
I can think of a few:

In the garden is just an old-timer's version of: "Jesus is my boyfriend" music, for instance, and is a direct contradiction of Christ's words in
John 16 :5-10

My son truly hates that song for your stated reasons.

Away in a manger is docetism.

My understanding is that it was initially used as a lullaby and inexplicably got added to hymnals. That may or may not be true. The line I object to is "The cattle are lowing the baby awakes, but little Lord Jesus no crying he makes."
I'll fly away plays extremely fast and loose with what the Scriptures reveal upon physical death, places no emphasis on the Resurrection, and is as self-centered a song as I can imagine.0

I'd call "I'll Fly Away" more of a country gospel song.

I don't dislike hymns:
My favourite of all time is probably There is a Fountain.
I like that the emphasis of "How Great Thou Art" is on Glorifying God himself for who he is, although I don't personally like it too much otherwise (it's hard to sing)
One of my favorite songs by the old Quartet Newsong is "Because of who you are" and that is what I like about "How Great thou Art".

The music I dislike the most is music which is centered upon self, our own feelings, or what we can get out of God.
A lot of Southern Gospel (which I love) is particularly guilty of this. Especially the OLDER Southern Gospel. Furthermore it tended to have rather vapid Theology also.

Amen!

I do also know of a lot of Christian Rock that has more depth and Theology than many or most traditional hymns.
I can think of the older music of Petra, (hard rock) Altar Boys (punk) Deliverance (Heavy Metal) which often has extremely deep Theology and often it is subject matter which, whilst quite Biblical, is often ignored in most classic hymnals.

But that stuff is really hard to listen to. I never can make out their lyrics.

I genuinely believe "style" is not particularly relevant, although there are settings where a certain form of music would be non-God-glorifying to play. By way of example: While I think it is a fantastic song, I would not subject your lovely bride to a high-decibel presentation of This Means War by Petra or Weapons of our Warfare by Deliverance. She would HATE it, I don't doubt, and what would make it not glorifying to God isn't the song itself, but the setting and the lack of consideration for the worshipers gathered. I don't know the particular song you were referencing at your supporting church but, if it caused (and could also reasonably be thought to cause or likely cause) your wife real physical discomfort, I would agree it did not honor God.

Well said.

I love many of the old hymns, but, let us never let them become sacred cows (not suggesting you do). That is how the modern Church falls into idolatry.

Cows should never be allowed in a church service.

Good post.

 

[Some Rando]

But that stuff is really hard to listen to. I never can make out their lyrics.

And I would consider that a real objection and maybe the soundest objection to it.
The question has to be asked: Even if a Rock song has incredibly great lyrics, if they are unintelligible (at least to many) are they then not particularly edifying?

Mind you, I loathed this objection as a youngster when the fuddy-duddies asked it, and to be fair, they might often have used that objection simply because they personally disliked it and not asked it in good faith (if you take my meaning). However, I must admit that it is a real objection that raises meaningful questions.

 

[John of Japan]

And I would consider that a real objection and maybe the soundest objection to it.
The question has to be asked: Even if a Rock song has incredibly great lyrics, if they are unintelligible (at least to many) are they then not particularly edifying?

Mind you, I loathed this objection as a youngster when the fuddy-duddies asked it, and to be fair, they might often have used that objection simply because they personally disliked it and not asked it in good faith (if you take my meaning). However, I must admit that it is a real objection that raises meaningful questions.

Good post!

Kind of like, if a tree fell in a forest and nobody heard it.... This goes back to my youth. I rejected the hard rock songs categorically, but not on religious grounds. It just didn't make sense to me to try to understand something that hard to hear. Side note: There is a Japanese idiom, kikinikui (聞きにくい) that means literally, "hard to hear," but the idiomatic meaning is, "terrible sound." That's hard rock to me.

I started playing guitar when I was 14, and loved the soft sounds. I bought very few pop records, but I did have the single of "Never My Love." Easy to play, easy to sing, easy to listen to, easy to understand.

 

[Some Rando]

Cows should never be allowed in a church service.

Are we sure?
No kidding, an old preacher friend of mine once told me to practice preaching to cows.....they show rapt attention, and actually look surprisingly intelligent as they do

 

[JesusFan]

And I would consider that a real objection and maybe the soundest objection to it.
The question has to be asked: Even if a Rock song has incredibly great lyrics, if they are unintelligible (at least to many) are they then not particularly edifying?

Mind you, I loathed this objection as a youngster when the fuddy-duddies asked it, and to be fair, they might often have used that objection simply because they personally disliked it and not asked it in good faith (if you take my meaning). However, I must admit that it is a real objection that raises meaningful questions.

Reminds me of the time back during the so called Jesus college movement time, before my time, when no doubt many students were getting saved loved to ;listen to George Harrison singing my sweet Lord, but forgot to tune into very end when he told you that Krishna was his lord and savior

 

[JonC]

I asked. I didn't state. It's much more polite to make a query rather than declare, "This is what you believe..." or simply assume what someone thinks.

I wouldn't include country music as CCM. It has a much longer history, and has been a genre of its own far before CCM was invented. And the Gaithers sing a wide variety: country style Christian songs, hymns (with Bill's signature style), and CCM. Once in a while they will come up with something like what I have defined as rock, but not often.

There is, of course, country rock.

Fine. Give me some Scripture to back up what you say, or at a minimum interact with my Scripture (Eph. 4:10-11), which is very clear about the duties of church leadership being training the believers for ministry. Simply you declaring something doesn't make it so. (You seem to do that a lot. )

And define worship. There are various NT words translated worship, some of which do not fit what you wrote. For example, the most common NT word for "worship" is the verb proskuneo (προσκυνέω), meaning to physically bow down. So, what do you mean by "worship"?

And what in the world is pipious??

CCM is a wide genre. It is "Contemporary Christian Music".

Here are a few subcategories:

1. Contemporary Worship Music
2. Christian Rock
3. Christian Country
4. Christian R&B/ Rap
5. Christian Metal
6. Contemporary Gospel
7. Southern Gospel

It seems you are doing something akin to saying "Birds are chicken's because a chicken is a bird". That don't fly ........

I agree Christian Rock is not good music for congregational worship. You mentioned it was subpar (musically) to its secular counterpart. In general, it isn't (at one time, perhaps). Jars of Clay, Switchfoot....these made it in tge secular audience as well (just with Christian lyrics).

By "Contemporary Worship" what is meant is songs that were designed to be sung as a congregation. These are hymns, but with different music.

By "worship" in general I am speaking of giving glory to God (praising God) in all we do.

With music, I believe that it is good to express praise and to do so as a congregation.

I have no clue what "pipious" means, but my phone must.