No person can come to Christ by their own freewill ! 2

[Brightfame52]

That passage is not speaking of the Gospel, but rather it's speaking of the deeper truths of Scripture. You're going beyond the text with your interpretation.

Yes the Gospel is definitely meant. The Gospel in 1 Cor 2 is the deep things of God, His purposes and counsels are Gospel Truths and hidden from the natural man.

Jesus told Peter that it was of special revelation from the Father that he could even acknowledge Him as the Christ the Son of God, it wasn't natural Matt 16:17

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Now John Gill on 1 Cor 2 10

for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God; which does not suppose any ignorance of these things in the Spirit, antecedent to his searching of them; but his complete and perfect knowledge of them; even as God's searching of the hearts of men expresses his omniscience, and through knowledge of all that is in them: the "all things" the Spirit searches into, and has a perfect knowledge of, do not design in the utmost extent everything which comes within the compass of his infinite understanding; but every thing that is in, or belongs to the Gospel of Christ, even the more mysterious and sublime, as well as the more plain and easy doctrines: for the "deep things of God" intend not the perfections of his nature, which are past finding out unto perfection by men; nor the depths of his wise and righteous providence; but the mysterious doctrines of the Gospel, the fellowship of the mystery which was hid in God, his wise counsels of old concerning man's salvation, the scheme of things drawn in his eternal mind, and revealed in the word.https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_corinthians/2-10.htm

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



No I didnt, this is something found in the reading. Man cant comprehend the Light, it agrees with Paul as well 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.ampc

You continue to ignore the context BF and as a result you continue to make grievous errors.

What does this verse say BF?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

When do they receive Him BF?

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Why is believing the gospel so important BF?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

So we know that we are saved by God when we believe in His risen son. We cannot earn it and we do not deserve it so we have no reason to boast.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Silverhair]

The all is limited obviously to the all who become believers. The Sheep. Are all men without exception His Sheep ? No off course not. Jesus told us plainly who He died for in Jn 10:11,15 so the all pertains to His Sheep So everytime you say Im teaching universalism its your dishonesty and deceit.

You have to read your religion into the text for you to come to that conclusion BF.

God desires that ALL come to repentance and Christ said He would draw ALL to Himself. Where you error is when you make the drawing irresistible.

So are you saying that both God the Father and Christ were wrong?

Your religious view makes God a liar BF.

You have to deny many clear bible verses BF in order to hold to your particular view.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

I could go on BF but I am sure you get what the bible is saying. The ALL is not limited as you would like it to be but is for ALL of humanity.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

You continue to ignore the context BF and as a result you continue to make grievous errors.

Its in the context so you are avoiding what's in the scripture, no way around it

 

[Brightfame52]

You have to read your religion into the text for you to come to that conclusion BF.

God desires that ALL come to repentance and Christ said He would draw ALL to Himself. Where you error is when you make the drawing irresistible.

So are you saying that both God the Father and Christ were wrong?

Your religious view makes God a liar BF.

You have to deny many clear bible verses BF in order to hold to your particular view.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

I could go on BF but I am sure you get what the bible is saying. The ALL is not limited as you would like it to be but is for ALL of humanity.

Drawing is salvation begun. Once God starts the drawing, one is a new creature.

 

[Van]

Yes, God makes plans, and no plan of God can be thwarted. God planned before creation that His Lamb of God would sacrifice His life to provide the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity. This plan was known before Adam had sinned in the garden!

God's redemption plan established before creation had these features:
God chooses individuals whose faith He has credited as righteousness.
God transfers spiritually those individuals whose faith He credited as righteousness into Christ.
God causes those transferred into Christ to undergo the washing regeneration, making them alive, rather than spiritually dead.
After those individuals are born anew, as new creations, created for good works, they are to go forth and produce fruit.
As a born anew Christians, they have been spiritually transferred into Christ, made alive (regenerated) and sealed in Christ.

Note only Christ abides in those sealed in Christ , and indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, can produce good fruit.

Therefore, I believe the correct doctrine is "Unless God reveals His gospel to us, and we hear and understand it, no person can put their faith in Christ. I believe the doctrine that we must be supernaturally "enabled" to believe by the Spirit is false doctrine.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Van

God chooses individuals whose faith He has credited as righteousness.

Thats conditional election, its unbiblical. Gods choice of an individual according to the purpose of election is b4 they are born and having done any good or evil Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

 

[Van]

@Van

Thats conditional election, its unbiblical. Gods choice of an individual according to the purpose of election is b4 they are born and having done any good or evil Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Everyone knows the election of Romans 9:11 was not for salvation. And it IS conditional, God chose the older to serve the younger!

 

[Brightfame52]

Everyone knows the election of Romans 9:11 was not for salvation. And it IS conditional, God chose the older to serve the younger!

Sure it was for salvation ain't no doubt about it

 

[Silverhair]

That passage is not speaking of the Gospel, but rather it's speaking of the deeper truths of Scripture. You're going beyond the text with your interpretation.

That is something that I have pointed out to BF many times and yet he sticks to his man-made view of scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

Drawing is salvation begun. Once God starts the drawing, one is a new creature.

There you go again BF, your words condemn you.

Drawing does not make you a new creature just as it does not save you.

Your view is not biblical so I have to ask where did you get it from?

 

[cjab]

@cjab


Thats foolish talk, its called comparing spiritual things with spiritual 1 Cor 2

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

I have no idea what you're trying to say, as what you bolded - which is by no means the only translation of the Greek word συνκρίνοντες (grasping truths combinatively) - is what the apostles practised, and so isn't "foolish talk." Rather it's the road into understanding why the Calvinistic /Augustinian system is flawed.

For 1 Cor 2:14 provides the only context to the the Calvinistic gospel (i.e. the natural man always rejects the things of the Spirit), such that the gospel is made an oxymoron (i.e. insufficient) as to grace for no unsaved men is technically able appropriate the gospel without an external coercive action by God distinct from the gospel. But this isn't what Jesus taught - he didn't assert that all men from Adam are unreceptive to the spiritual truth of the gospel. To assert such (the "total inability/depravity" doctrine) is to teach what the bible doesn't teach: it is to confound the lost sheep with the satan's sheep.

A remnant of spiritually receptive has existed in every generation from Adam: it is the remnant who accept the gospel. The classical natural man of which Paul speaks is permanently opposed to both Moses and Christ (cf. the pharisees). Yet they are but a subset of men, and have never comprised "all men."

Thus the "darkness" in John 1:5 is referring to the generality of men, but even then, there are exceptions, and many are recounted in the gospel, from the Jewish prophets to non-Jews such as Cornelius who gave gifts to the poor. That said, the chosen remnant, in being caught up in this prevailing darkness, is not untainted by it. Hence believers do not escape the charge by Paul of participation in the darkness.

 

[cjab]

How many "degrees of free will" are you aware of? What is your knowledge of such degrees based on?

Three degrees, plainly taught by Christ, all having differring degrees of free-will:

(a) Natural man/satan's sheep - bad sinners who reject moses, love untruth, and are subject to delusions from God in judgement. "The worst of sinners."
(b) Receptive man/lost sheep - is able to grasp spiritual truths combinatively. Hasn't rejected the law of Moses but is led astray.
(c) Found sheep with faith in God doing God's will.

(Luk 22:42 KJV) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Jesus is my example of dealing with my will. He subjected His will to His Father. My goal is to do likewise.

(Rom 6:6 KJV) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:7 KJV) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
(Rom 6:18 KJV) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(Rom 6:22 KJV) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

By the completed work of Jesus Christ' sacrificial death on the cross, I have been freed from the bondage of sin controlling my life.

My freedom is not for the purpose of me having free will. Instead:
(Rom 6:18 KJV) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Sure. Free will is given us to do God's will.

 

[Brightfame52]

There you go again BF, your words condemn you.

Drawing does not make you a new creature just as it does not save you.

Your view is not biblical so I have to ask where did you get it from?

Yes it does, its Gods work begun in you Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The drawing is Gods power working in us, the word means

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

Strong's Greek: 1670. ἑλκύω (helkó) -- To draw, to drag

God in us is Salvation

 

[Van]

Sure it was for salvation ain't no doubt about it

Complete fiction, an assertion with absolutely no support in scripture. Folks, they just make it up and spew it out.

"God chose Jacob (whom He later renamed “Israel”) to be the father of His chosen people, the Israelites. God rejected Esau (who was also called “Edom”) and did not choose him to be the father of His chosen people." (from the internet)

What is taught by God choosing the older to serve the younger, is that God's choices do not depend on human traditions or customs (i.e. younger brothers served the older sibling). God's choice does not depend on actions or works of those chosen, but upon fulfilling His purpose or purposes.

Scripture teaches God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, so God's purpose is to choose believers whose faith He has credited as righteousness.

 

[Brightfame52]

@cjab

I have no idea what you're trying to say, as what you bolded - which is by no means the only translation of the Greek word συνκρίνοντες (grasping truths combinatively) - is what the apostles practised, and so isn't "foolish talk

It iis foolish talk. Thats what the scriptures are for, to search them, from context to context and find truths that compliment one another. The Holy Spirit is author of the entire volume.

 

[Brightfame52]

Complete fiction, an assertion with absolutely no support in scripture. Folks, they just make it up and spew it out.

"God chose Jacob (whom He later renamed “Israel”) to be the father of His chosen people, the Israelites. God rejected Esau (who was also called “Edom”) and did not choose him to be the father of His chosen people." (from the internet)

What is taught by God choosing the older to serve the younger, is that God's choices do not depend on human traditions or customs (i.e. younger brothers served the older sibling). God's choice does not depend on actions or works of those chosen, but upon fulfilling His purpose or purposes.

Scripture teaches God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, so God's purpose is to choose believers whose faith He has credited as righteousness.

Its no way around it, the whole entire letter is about Gospel Truth and Salvation, Rom 1:15-17

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The 1st 12 chapters are the Doctrines of Salvation, Chapters 13ff are directives for the practical, living out of the salvific mercies.

 

[Van]

Its no way around it, the whole entire letter is about Gospel Truth and Salvation, Rom 1:15-17

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The 1st 12 chapters are the Doctrines of Salvation, Chapters 13ff are directives for the practical, living out of the salvific mercies.

On and on, denial of truth is the Calvinist game, and nullification of truth is the outcome.

"God chose Jacob (whom He later renamed “Israel”) to be the father of His chosen people, the Israelites. God rejected Esau (who was also called “Edom”) and did not choose him to be the father of His chosen people." (from the internet)

Scripture teaches God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, so God's purpose is fulfilled by choosing believers for salvation, whose faith He has credited as righteousness.

Denial that Esau and Jacob were not chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, and nullification of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 because it teaches God chooses individuals for salvation conditionally, utilizing their faith in the truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

On and on, denial of truth is the Calvinist game, and nullification of truth is the outcome.

"God chose Jacob (whom He later renamed “Israel”) to be the father of His chosen people, the Israelites. God rejected Esau (who was also called “Edom”) and did not choose him to be the father of His chosen people." (from the internet)

Scripture teaches God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, so God's purpose is fulfilled by choosing believers for salvation, whose faith He has credited as righteousness.

Denial that Esau and Jacob were not chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, and nullification of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 because it teaches God chooses individuals for salvation conditionally, utilizing their faith in the truth.

Gods word teaches that Gods purpose in election is not conditioned on the will of man, good or bad, its made before they were born, God specifically emphasized that point, and people disregard it to their shame, Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Its according to Gods own Sovereign call from within Himself.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes it does, its Gods work begun in you Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The drawing is Gods power working in us, the word means

Strong's Greek: 1670. ἑλκύω (helkó) -- To draw, to drag

God in us is Salvation

BF you seem to be moving in the right direction at least.

We are drawn by the power of God be it through His creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc.

But man being drawn does not mean saved. Many who are drawn will reject God. All you have to do is look around BF. How many have heard the gospel message and yet reject the salvation that He offers?

But you are correct when you say God in us is salvation. That is biblical. What is also biblical is that Christ is only in us when we have freely trusted in Him then He indwells us not before.