Do All Baptists Except IFB's Spiritualize The Bible Prophesies To Israel

[kyredneck]

There is no excuse for a sane person with a high IQ and a complete Bible who says he is saved to fail to see the special and eternal relationship between the nation and people of God, Israel, and God who raised them up.

There is no excuse for a sane person with a high IQ and a complete Bible to keep making 'a distinction' between Jew and non-Jew that the scripture tells you multiple times is not there:

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

...only Dispies make a distinction....but you seem to go beyond that, placing Jews on a pedestal, bordering on idolatry.

 

[Charlie24]

There is no excuse for a sane person with a high IQ and a complete Bible to keep making 'a distinction' between Jew and non-Jew that the scripture tells you multiple times is not there:

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

...only Dispies make a distinction....but you seem to go beyond that, placing Jews on a pedestal, bordering on idolatry.

I think some of the distinction you're speaking of with Israel is confused and actually takes place during the Millennial reign of Christ.

Zechariah said the nations will come to Israel to honor Christ during that 1000 years. If they don't come they will receive no rain, and Zechariah said that Egypt would be one of those nations that refuse to come and will receive no rain.

He also said that the nations would come and take hold of the skirt of the Jew, probably a priest, and say, "we will go with you to worship for we have heard that God is with you."

The idea is that Israel will be where the Lord dwells for 1000 years and all nations are are forced to come through the Jews to Christ. That will not set well with some nations. During this time it seems that Israel will be the greatest nation on earth.

This is also the time Israel will fulfill their original calling in evangelizing the world in Christ. They failed the first time but they will not fail this time. The Church must remember we were God's second choice to take the Word to the world.

I suppose you could call it a distinction of sorts, but it has a time limit of 1000 years.

 

[Zaatar71]

I think some of the distinction you're speaking of with Israel is confused and actually takes place during the Millennial reign of Christ.

Zechariah said the nations will come to Israel to honor Christ during that 1000 years. If they don't come they will receive no rain, and Zechariah said that Egypt would be one of those nations that refuse to come and will receive no rain.

He also said that the nations would come and take hold of the skirt of the Jew, probably a priest, and say, "we will go with you to worship for we have heard that God is with you."

The idea is that Israel will be where the Lord dwells for 1000 years and all nations are are forced to come through the Jews to Christ. That will not set well with some nations. During this time it seems that Israel will be the greatest nation on earth.

This is also the time Israel will fulfill their original calling in evangelizing the world in Christ. They failed the first time but they will not fail this time. The Church must remember we were God's second choice to take the Word to the world.

I suppose you could call it a distinction of sorts, but it has a time limit of 1000 years.

Many believe the Millenium has started, so are these things happening now? These distinctions?
Where did Zechariah say nations will come to Israel? Where did he say during the millennium?
Where are all "nations" forced to come to Christ, by Jews? Where is Israel said to be the greatest nation on earth?
Where do you get this idea, that the Church is God;s second Choice? Where are these ideas coming from?

 

[Charlie24]

Many believe the Millenium has started, so are these things happening now? These distinctions?
Where did Zechariah say nations will come to Israel? Where did he say during the millennium?
Where are all "nations" forced to come to Christ, by Jews? Where is Israel said to be the greatest nation on earth?
Where do you get this idea, that the Church is God;s second Choice? Where are these ideas coming from?

The Scripture doesn't spell it out, as in many cases. What I've stated is what I believe, and I know there will be many who disagree.

Zech. 14:16-19

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."


Only the Jews were to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, but now Zechariah tells us "all nations" will keep the Feast.

Has this happened yet?

 

[Zaatar71]

The Scripture doesn't spell it out, as in many cases. What I've stated is what I believe, and I know there will be many who disagree.

Zech. 14:16-19

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."


Only the Jews were to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, but now Zechariah tells us "all nations" will keep the Feast.

Has this happened yet?

Do you think it is the earthly Jerusalem, or the heavenly Jerusalem? Gal.4, Hebrews12

 

[Charlie24]

Do you think it is the earthly Jerusalem, or the heavenly Jerusalem? Gal.4, Hebrews12

Zechariah said in context there would be no rain if they didn't come to Jerusalem.

I can only see an earthly Jerusalem, unless there is such a thing as rain in heaven?

 

[Zaatar71]

Zechariah said in context there would be no rain if they didn't come to Jerusalem.

I can only see an earthly Jerusalem, unless there is such a thing as rain in heaven?

Deut 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

 

[Charlie24]

Deut 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

I'm a dispensationalist, I believe in the literal interpretation of the Scripture, until it becomes obvious it's not.

There is no reason to believe what Zechariah said of Jerusalem to be spiritual.

 

[Zaatar71]

I'm a dispensationalist, I believe in the literal interpretation of the Scripture, until it becomes obvious it's not.

There is no reason to believe what Zechariah said of Jerusalem to be spiritual.

I understand, but let me pose a question...Is the Jerusalem above literal?
Gal4:
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Also...is this literal? or something else, explain how you understand this if you would. Thanks.

Heb.12:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[Charlie24]

I understand, but let me pose a question...Is the Jerusalem above literal?
Gal4:
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Also...is this literal? or something else, explain how you understand this if you would. Thanks.

Heb.12:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

In Heb. 12:22-23, the author is speaking of a literal place "heavenly Jerusalem" with and in spiritual applications.

It's obvious from Scripture there is an earthly and spiritual Jerusalem, but we must keep it in context with the message.

There is no reason whatsoever to apply a "heavenly Jerusalem" to the context of Zechariah 14.

 

[Zaatar71]

In Heb. 12:22-23, the author is speaking of a literal place "heavenly Jerusalem" with and in spiritual applications.

It's obvious from Scripture there is an earthly and spiritual Jerusalem, but we must keep it in context with the message.

There is no reason whatsoever to apply a "heavenly Jerusalem" to the context of Zechariah 14.

Why not? Looks like both were forward from Zechariahs day.

13;7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
14:
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

The living water is the gospel...

 

[Charlie24]

Why not? Looks like both were forward from Zechariahs day.

13;7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
14:
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

The living water is the gospel...

Zechariah giving prophecy does not mean it's not a literal future event.

If you insist on applying spiritual interpretation where there is no evidence of it being so, then go ahead, we will just ignore it.

Not trying to be rude, just using common sense.

For example, Christ said, "you are the salt of the earth." It should be obvious that man is not literal salt and should not be taken literally.

The context of Scripture will reveal the literal from the spiritual, if we take in the context and use common sense.

 

[Zaatar71]

Zechariah giving prophecy does not mean it's not a literal future event.

If you insist on applying spiritual interpretation where there is no evidence of it being so, then go ahead, we will just ignore it.

Not trying to be rude, just using common sense.

For example, Christ said, "you are the salt of the earth." It should be obvious that man is not literal salt and should not be taken literally.

The context of Scripture will reveal the literal from the spiritual, if we take in the context and use common sense.

It was A future event for Zechariah, it is history to us.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. [prophecy]

now in mt.26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. [fulfillment]

 

[Charlie24]

It was A future event for Zechariah, it is history to us.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. [prophecy]

now in mt.26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. [fulfillment]

Yes, a prophecy fulfilled in 70 ad when Israel was scattered to the 4 winds.

Zechariah predicts a regathering of Israel in "the Spirit of Grace."

This is when "all Israel shall be saved, as Paul said.

They will see the One whom they have pierced, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Zech. 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, a prophecy fulfilled in 70 ad when Israel was scattered to the 4 winds.

Zechariah predicts a regathering of Israel in "the Spirit of Grace."

This is when "all Israel shall be saved, as Paul said.

They will see the One whom they have pierced, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Zech. 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

At the Second Coming the anit-christ will be in the process of wiping out Israel.

Christ will destroy him and his armies in plain sight of Israel.

Zechariah says 2/3 of Israel will die and 1/3 will He bring through the fire.

Israel will see with their own eyes that Jesus of Nazareth was and is their true Messiah.

Rom. 11:26-27

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

 

[Charlie24]

At the Second Coming the anit-christ will be in the process of wiping out Israel.

Christ will destroy him and his armies in plain sight of Israel.

Zechariah says 2/3 of Israel will die and 1/3 will He bring through the fire.

Israel will see with their own eyes that Jesus of Nazareth was and is their true Messiah.

Rom. 11:26-27

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

It's after the Second Coming and all of Israel being saved that the content of our original conversation takes place.

The Kingdom Age begins (the thousand year reign of Christ) when all the earth will come yearly to Jerusalem and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

All of this from Zechariah are literal future events concerning mainly Israel but the entire world indirectly.

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes, a prophecy fulfilled in 70 ad when Israel was scattered to the 4 winds.

Zechariah predicts a regathering of Israel in "the Spirit of Grace."

This is when "all Israel shall be saved, as Paul said.

They will see the One whom they have pierced, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Zech. 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Matthew says it was fulfilled at the cross not,70ad.....All ye shall be offended because of me this night:

 

[Charlie24]

Matthew says it was fulfilled at the cross not,70ad.....All ye shall be offended because of me this night:

The prophecy is concerning the crucifixion of Christ in unbelief, as a result God took away the temple and scattered them over the world.

The disciples fleeing in the night of Christs' arrest is a type of the entirety of Israel being scattered.

 

[Charlie24]

The prophecy is concerning the crucifixion of Christ in unbelief, as a result God took away the temple and scattered them over the world.

The disciples fleeing in the night of Christs' arrest is a type of the entirety of Israel being scattered.

@Zaatar71, we are opposites in Scripture. We will disagree on almost all of Biblical doctrine found in Scripture.

I think the reason is the difference in our foundational beliefs.

The foundation of Christianity is Jesus Christ crucified to set man free from his sin.

That foundation is salvation, which we see differently.

Your foundation is God choosing that salvation for man, mine is God offering salvation with man choosing to accept or reject.

We go our separate ways with interpretation based on that principle we believe.

 

[Zaatar71]

The prophecy is concerning the crucifixion of Christ in unbelief, as a result God took away the temple and scattered them over the world.

The disciples fleeing in the night of Christs' arrest is a type of the entirety of Israel being scattered.

In verse 7 this Good Shepherd will be struck (in 11:17 it was the worthless shepherd who was destroyed), and the striking will leave him pierced (12:10). Here, the one who “wields the sword” is God himself; “awake” is the feminine imperative referring to the sword, and “strike” is the masculine imperative agreeing with God. So in Zechariah, Messiah is put to death by the people according to 12:10-14, and by God according to 13:7 (see Isaiah 53:10 and Acts 2:23).

When the Shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered. The full meaning of this would be the scattering of Israel because of their rejection of Messiah, that scattering being part of the curse pronounced for disobedience to the covenant (see Deut. 28:64; 29:24-25). God gives up the nation to the misery and confusion of a flock without a shepherd. So the flock that is scattered in consequence of the death of the Messiah is the covenant nation, ethnic Israel. Allen Ross