Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine.

[Zaatar71]

Of course there will be a rebuttal from the opposing belief, that is to be expected.

I'm just asking you to research and see the roots of Calvinism, whether you agree or not.

We didn't come up with this out of thin air.

Charlie, I know you are trying to help, but one thing you should know is that biblical Calvinists are aware of most of these anti-Cal websites.
Most of us can present a stronger objection than the Non Cals try to do. We search out truth from a scriptural base on every aspect of bible teaching, not just the 5 points. We look at any credible biblically based objections, and are prepared to speak to them.

 

[Dave G]

God has blinded Israel and set them aside until the Church Age has run it's course, as Paul has clearly said. God is dealing separately with Israel's salvation that will come after the Church Age has come to its full.

Charlie...
I just gave you Scripture that clearly answers your question:
"Where in Scripture do I find God leaving man to perish in his sin without reaching out to him in mercy?"
...and you agreed.

By blinding Israel, He effectively withholds His mercy from them and denies them the possibility of seeing and believing on Christ, doesn't He?
And you don't see the significance of that?
That He blinds them so that they cannot see, cannot hear and cannot be converted just as Matthew 13 says?

There's your answer, Charlie.
He has mercy and compassion on whom He will, and whom He will He hardens.

 

[Dave G]

Look at Cain and Abel to see how God reveals Himself to man.

Both of them knew what the animal sacrifice meant, it represented the coming Messiah of God.

No Charlie, they didn't.

I fact, the text never tells us how Abel knew and Cain did not...does it?
But we do find an answer that gives us more detail somewhere else, don't we?

" By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." ( Hebrews 11:4 ).

By faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice...
God testifying of His gifts toward Abel;

The gifts of faith and righteousness.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, I know you are trying to help, but one thing you should know is that biblical Calvinists are aware of most of these anti-Cal websites.
Most of us can present a stronger objection than the Non Cals try to do. We search out truth from a scriptural base on every aspect of bible teaching, not just the 5 points. We look at any credible biblically based objections, and are prepared to speak to them.

Just hear me out, Z, that's all I ask.

What burns inside the majority of believers is double-predestination. They (we) reject it.

There can be no single-predestination, if God in His sovereign will has elected some to salvation by default the rest are left for spiritual destruction.

Where did this come from? How many verses of Scripture show this can't be so?

Paul never said that man was elected from the foundation of the world for salvation, that is formulated in man's mind.

Paul said that we were predestined/chosen to be conformed in the image of His Son, he is not speaking of who will be saved, but how we are saved.

This double-predestination thing is pagan, it is contrary to Scripture from beginning to end.

 

[Charlie24]

Cain "could have"? How?

According to Genesis, did God specifically tell either of them what He found pleasing?
Where you're getting this from the text I do not know.
Secondly, God's way of salvation has never been through animal sacrifice:

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.
4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." ( Hebrews 10:1-4 )

But one thing from Genesis I do know...
Abel knew, and because of that he brought the right sacrifice.

OK, Dave G, you have it figured out. Just ignore what I've said, I should have known better.

 

[Dave G]

OK, Dave G, you have it figured out.

If I do, it's not because of anything I ever did by myself, Charlie.

 

[Zaatar71]

Just hear me out, Z, that's all I ask.

What burns inside the majority of believers is double-predestination. They (we) reject it.

There can be no single-predestination, if God in His sovereign will has elected some to salvation by default the rest are left for spiritual destruction.

Where did this come from? How many verses of Scripture show this can't be so?

Paul never said that man was elected from the foundation of the world for salvation, that is formulated in man's mind.

Paul said that we were predestined/chosen to be conformed in the image of His Son, he is not speaking of who will be saved, but how we are saved.

This double-predestination thing is pagan, it is contrary to Scripture from beginning to end.

Hello Charlie, Good post, and good question! I myself reject double predestination as I do not see that in scripture either. While I have read a small group who advocate for what they say is "double predestination". I think they misuse the word predestination to get there.
I have said it before, because of fall, the condition of all natural men is they are born in the realm of spiritual death, and unless God has mercy on them they will die in their sins and go to second death. There is no need for God to Predestine them to second death, because that is where they are heading to begin with. The Confession of faith makes it clear;
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or
foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

This "passing over" or leaving them to their own actions is known as preterition. Why some confuse it is God has ordained to punish all sin. So there a two or three verses that refer to this fact, namely that God has ordained to punish all in sin who have no propitiation, and Mediator.

 

[Charlie24]

If I do, it's not because of anything I ever did by myself, Charlie.

You're confident in what you believe, we'll leave it at that. You certainly don't me explaining anything.

 

[Charlie24]

Hello Charlie, Good post, and good question! I myself reject double predestination as I do not see that in scripture either. While I have read a small group who advocate for what they say is "double predestination". I think they misuse the word predestination to get there.
I have said it before, because of fall, the condition of all natural men is they are born in the realm of spiritual death, and unless God has mercy on them they will die in their sins and go to second death. There is no need for God to Predestine them to second death, because that is where they are heading to begin with. The Confession of faith makes it clear;
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or
foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

This "passing over" or leaving them to their own actions is known as preterition. Why some confuse it is God has ordained to punish all sin. So there a two or three verses that refer to this fact, namely that God has ordained to punish all in sin who have no propitiation, and Mediator.

No matter how it's rubbed over, that view see's a God that has left man to die in his sin without reaching out to him as He reached out to His so-called Elect.

 

[Charlie24]

No matter how it's rubbed over, that view see's a God that has left man to die in his sin without reaching out to him as He reached out to His so-called Elect.

The Calvinists have told me for over 40 years that is the sovereignty of God, He can do whatever He wants.

Z, that is not the God I serve, and how can they expect me to believe that when I can plainly see in Scripture the opposite God?

Most of us take offense, in that we see it as an attack on the character of God, and the argument begins.

 

[Silverhair]

Too bad you say such things about the Truth

To bad you call a false philosophy from the 4 century the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Its sad you call the Gospel "pagan philosophy"

They you go BF trying to deflect from the truth. The gospel is from the 1st century as you should know but it is your false philosophy that comes from the forth century.

If you would actually do some research on the subject, which I am sure you will not do, then you would know that your religion is based on pagan philosophy that augustine brought into the church.

 

[Silverhair]

what I believe comes directly from scripture. Perhaps some day you will see it, instead of making up excuses/

@Zaatar71 if you actually followed the word of God then we would not be in disagreement. You have chosen to follow a man-made philosophy rather than the word of God.

Save yourself the continued embarrassment of making silly comments. Check out the basis of your philosophy. It is not hard to do but I doubt that you will as then you would have to jettison all those false ideas you are so fond of.

 

[Silverhair]

The Calvinists have told me for over 40 years that is the sovereignty of God, He can do whatever He wants.

Z, that is not the God I serve, and how can they expect me to believe that when I can plainly see in Scripture the opposite God?

Most of us take offense, in that we see it as an attack on the character of God, and the argument begins.

It is unfortunate that most calvinists have a closed mind when it comes to looking at what the bible actually says.

 

[cjab]

It doesnt have to be.

If it doesn't, there is a grave risk of imputing a meaning to the word "predestine" that the Greek word (or word usage) won't bear. And confusion of Greek words is part of the Calvinistic problem. For a start, "predestine," which is not used in Rom 9, ought not to be confused with the Greek word ἐξεγείρω (exegeiró) translated to "raise up completely" (this translation itself is questionable), which is used of Pharaoh in Rom 9:17, and is contextual to God's actions in this world, in the sense that God permitted/enabled/facilitated Pharaoh's wickedness and power to increase exponentially and without restraint for his own purposes. God's permissive/enabling will is seen throughout the Old Testament. When God brings wrath for sin through his angels, the word "predestine" is also not used.

A Calvinist would conclude that: "Pharaoh was predestined for wrath" but it isn't the apostolic exegesis, where sins weren't appointed by reason of a supervening act of God, which is the sense of "predestine" (only ever applied to those to be saved).

The Calvinistic fallacy is to fail to fully grasp the meanings of both "predestine" and "raise up." It is to presuppose that God intervenes in the affairs of men even so as to "cause people to sin." I do not find this doctrine in the bible.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now, BF, you know that's not what I'm saying. Let's don't be this way.

@Silverhair is correct on the pagan philosophy, you can read all about it if you want.

Yeah Tulip Truths are Gospel of Grace Truths and you scorn them all the time

 

[Brightfame52]

To bad you call a false philosophy from the 4 century the truth.

Its sad you have been deceived

 

[Brightfame52]

They you go BF trying to deflect from the truth. The gospel is from the 1st century as you should know but it is your false philosophy that comes from the forth century.

If you would actually do some research on the subject, which I am sure you will not do, then you would know that your religion is based on pagan philosophy that augustine brought into the church.

The Truths of Tulip are from the beginning, you have been deceived by mans philosophy

 

[Brightfame52]

If it doesn't, there is a grave risk of imputing a meaning to the word "predestine" that the Greek word (or word usage) won't bear. And confusion of Greek words is part of the Calvinistic problem. For a start, "predestine," which is not used in Rom 9, ought not to be confused with the Greek word ἐξεγείρω (exegeiró) translated to "raise up completely" (this translation itself is questionable), which is used of Pharaoh in Rom 9:17, and is contextual to God's actions in this world, in the sense that God permitted/enabled/facilitated Pharaoh's wickedness and power to increase exponentially and without restraint for his own purposes. God's permissive will in action in seen throughout the Old Testament. And again, when God brings wrath for sin through his angels, the word "predestine" is never used.

A Calvinist would conclude that: "Pharaoh was predestined for wrath" but that isn't what the bible says, where they weren't appointed by reason of a supervening act of God, which is the sense of "predestine" (only ever applied to those to be saved).

The Calvinistic fallacy is to presuppose that God intervenes in the affairs of men even so as to "cause people to sin." I do not find this in the bible.

Again your sound bite doesnt have to be there, Rom 9 teaches some have been predestine to wrath and destruction, God predetermined their destiny.

 

[Silverhair]

Yeah Tulip Truths are Gospel of Grace Truths and you scorn them all the time

Of course I would scorn a false philosophy trying to masquerade as biblical truth.