Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Do the research BF. Your continued denial of historical fact just makes you look foolish.
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Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine.
- Thread starter Alan Dale Gross
- Start date
Do the research BF. Your continued denial of historical fact just makes you look foolish.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its a pitty, your feelings towards the Truth, may God have mercy on you b4 He returns
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Tulip is the Gospel from the beginning of the world
Predestination is a False Doctrine.
Calvinism's false doctrine is that Ephesians 1:4 teaches individuals (foreseen before they were created) were individually chosen for salvation before creation. This is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we once were not a people chosen for his own possession and once had not received mercy. Therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, when God chose the Word to be His Lamb of God, His Redeemer, He chose corporately those who might be redeemed. This also makes sense since we did not exist as individuals.
The foreseen individuals supposedly did not believe or their belief was disregarded by God. If that was so, and it happens to be a complete fiction, then they would be condemned for unbelief. John 3:18.The list of verses and scriptural teachings that must be nullified to accept the fiction of Calvinism is long indeed.
The meaning of foreknowledge is knowledge acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present, such as the implementation of a pre-determined plan.
Jesus was delivered according to the foreknowledge of God. The plan had been pre-determined.
Peter is addressing those chosen according to God's pre-determined redemption plan, which is to set the individual's spiritually apart in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, enabling obedience by the washing of regeneration and rebirth as a new creation for good works.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I trust the word of God not the words of men as you have done.
Have you bothered to actually done the research into the foundations of your particular view? I doubt you have.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is just a foolish statement.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yet "predestination" is a biblical word, Salty, and a very real and Scriptural concept.Pre-destination to me seems similar to a Marionette
The fact of the Lord working in someone or predestining them to a purpose ( without asking them for their "permission" ) is true to His word...so why people on this forum ( and in places throughout the world that name the name of Christ ) seem to constantly object to this ( sometimes even violently ), amazes me at times.
To me, it's as if the very idea of the Lord doing as He wishes with His creations, offends those very same creations...many of whom adamantly profess to be saved, to know Him, to love Him and to believe His words.
I even confess to being confused, occasionally, over how someone who professes Christ, when told what the Bible says about how and why they are saved, gets angry over it and likens this process to being a "robot" or a marionette on strings; As if, for some reason, they are upset with God for Him choosing them to salvation and an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.
It would be like someone being told they were left millions of dollars by someone they've never met... and for them to take issue with the very idea of not having had a say in it.
That's how amazed I am, every time I read some of the comments against it on this forum.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
But since it seems that you're still in doubt of the Scriptural truth of this, here are some examples of "predestination" ( the Lord fixing someone's destiny for them beforehand ) if you would like to review them for yourself:
1) Elizabeth and Zacharias were not consulted on what name to call their son by, in Luke 1... they were told to call his name "John", and were told what John was going to be: The one who would prepare the way for the coming of Jesus Christ to Israel. It was "predestined" for him and for them.
2) Mary was not asked to be overshadowed by the Holy Ghost and to give birth to the Lord Jesus, it was "predestined" for her ( Luke 1:26-33 ) and for Joseph.
3) Jeremiah was not asked to be a prophet, he was "predestined" as one ( Jeremiah 1:4-5 ) and later told by the Lord what He had done.
4) Paul was confronted by the Lord on the way to Damascus to bring Christians back to Jerusalem to stand before the Pharisees, and he was "predestined" and told through Ananias what the Lord was going to do with him..." ..... for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 for I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake." ( Acts 9:15-16 )
There are many more that I could give you ( Moses comes to mind, as well as David ) , but I think that you are already aware of many of them, Salty.
Nevertheless, you seem to think that it's OK for the Lord to invade someone's life and "predestine" them before they were born, as long as it's someone "great" like one of God's prophets or one of His apostles;
But for "the average joe" like you and me, it seems excessive or even outright wrong.
Have you ever stopped to consider what Paul, Jonah, Elijah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Nathan, David, Peter and many others were thinking after the Lord informed them what He wanted them to do in visions, dreams, manifestations and outright confrontations like He did for Moses, Paul, and Samuel, for example?
What makes them any different than anyone else who is saved?
Nothing, except what duties the Lord had for them to do for Him.
1) Elizabeth and Zacharias were not consulted on what name to call their son by, in Luke 1... they were told to call his name "John", and were told what John was going to be: The one who would prepare the way for the coming of Jesus Christ to Israel. It was "predestined" for him and for them.
2) Mary was not asked to be overshadowed by the Holy Ghost and to give birth to the Lord Jesus, it was "predestined" for her ( Luke 1:26-33 ) and for Joseph.
3) Jeremiah was not asked to be a prophet, he was "predestined" as one ( Jeremiah 1:4-5 ) and later told by the Lord what He had done.
4) Paul was confronted by the Lord on the way to Damascus to bring Christians back to Jerusalem to stand before the Pharisees, and he was "predestined" and told through Ananias what the Lord was going to do with him..." ..... for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 for I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake." ( Acts 9:15-16 )
There are many more that I could give you ( Moses comes to mind, as well as David ) , but I think that you are already aware of many of them, Salty.
Nevertheless, you seem to think that it's OK for the Lord to invade someone's life and "predestine" them before they were born, as long as it's someone "great" like one of God's prophets or one of His apostles;
But for "the average joe" like you and me, it seems excessive or even outright wrong.
Have you ever stopped to consider what Paul, Jonah, Elijah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Nathan, David, Peter and many others were thinking after the Lord informed them what He wanted them to do in visions, dreams, manifestations and outright confrontations like He did for Moses, Paul, and Samuel, for example?
What makes them any different than anyone else who is saved?
Nothing, except what duties the Lord had for them to do for Him.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
That's why I write this, sir...
Because Scripture tells us the "how", the "why", and the "when" that the Lord decided to save one and not another, and He does so knowing that even God's children may object to it, at least initially.
Nevertheless, the "predestination" of certain people has been a fact of how the Lord works since long before you or I were ever born.
How one can be a Christian, acknowledge that He has done this for certain people, and not understand that God's word states that He does this for all of His people, simply baffles me.
How many ( who profess Christ ) can read what's below and not know the truth of it, also makes me shake scratch my head:
" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 )
Because it's a blessing for those who are saved, not a curse.
I for one am glad that His "predestining" of me to salvation ( and His keeping me by His power and not my own ) was entirely in His hands...
Because if it wasn't, I would be continually at risk of not only displeasing Him and living in mortal terror of my every sin, but of never having any confidence that my place in His house and as His child was always in His hand.
That's why I urge every one who professes Christ as Saviour to study His words carefully, and to believe what is wrutten;
Knowing that His word takes time to sink in and to change our way of thinking.
May God bless you.
Because Scripture tells us the "how", the "why", and the "when" that the Lord decided to save one and not another, and He does so knowing that even God's children may object to it, at least initially.
Nevertheless, the "predestination" of certain people has been a fact of how the Lord works since long before you or I were ever born.
How one can be a Christian, acknowledge that He has done this for certain people, and not understand that God's word states that He does this for all of His people, simply baffles me.
How many ( who profess Christ ) can read what's below and not know the truth of it, also makes me shake scratch my head:
" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 )
Because it's a blessing for those who are saved, not a curse.
I for one am glad that His "predestining" of me to salvation ( and His keeping me by His power and not my own ) was entirely in His hands...
Because if it wasn't, I would be continually at risk of not only displeasing Him and living in mortal terror of my every sin, but of never having any confidence that my place in His house and as His child was always in His hand.
That's why I urge every one who professes Christ as Saviour to study His words carefully, and to believe what is wrutten;
Knowing that His word takes time to sink in and to change our way of thinking.
May God bless you.
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Well yes it does. Men know there is a God, by virtue of Creation, and Conscience. Those two lights allow all men to know there is a creator, but it does not spell out the way of Salvation.. Rom10:14-15.
Keep in mind if you would That Confessional Christians believe God is Perfect in all His Divine Attributes.
He has a perfect plan, that cannot be improved upon.
He cannot save one more person than the great multitude He has purposed to save. That would suggest that He is not omniscient.
That would suggest He is more of a spectator, rather than a merciful sovereign.
Keep in mind that God does not owe fallen man anything but Divine Justice.
That is why we are told in scripture that His mercy and love, are the basis for why He has purposed to save a multitude, not a few, but rather more people than the stars of heaven, or the sand of the sea.
Deut.7:9....Psalm 89:28
Ex.33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Ex34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
In the NT...Mt:20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
From the 1689 COF.;Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and
unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath
fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of
second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power
and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11;
Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not
decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or
foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin
to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and
their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according
to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto
everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause
moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will,
foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,
are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and
kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called,
justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John
10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men
attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their
effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and
admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel/
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
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Yes I do, because I don't recognize that God, I can't find Him in Scripture.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You called The Gospel man's philosophy
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It was written that the gospel was foolishness
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
May God grant you repentance before He comes