Christ set forth as a Propitiation

[Zaatar71]

You have a problem then.

If the doctrine of the Atonement is essential then it would be in God's Word (verbatim....in "what is written", in "the words that come from God") because those words are what we are commanded to lean on instead of our understanding.

By your criteria your theory cannot be correct.

It is clearly taught in scripture as martin M, and others have posted. Your nonsensical ideas and failure to accept godly teachers are not to be entertained, as they are proven to be unbiblical. You are welcome to your novelty, but no one is following you down this rabbit hole.
I am sorry you do not understand the verses being discussed. You try and word things to sound like what others are saying such as...
Our sins were laid upon him....well what does that actually mean/ Laid upon him in what way? You offer no understanding whatsoever, because you do not have any biblical understanding! Your false philosophy does not overrule the language of substitution that all churches who believe truth hold to. The road to apostasy should be avoided, but you are a free moral agent and can follow others who have made shipwreck of the faith.

 

[JesusFan]

You have a problem then.

If the doctrine of the Atonement is essential then it would be in God's Word (verbatim....in "what is written", in "the words that come from God") because those words are what we are commanded to lean on instead of our understanding.

By your criteria your theory cannot be correct.

White there are many views on the Atonment of Christ upon that Cross, the PST is the MOST biblical view

 

[JesusFan]

Actually, that is EXACTLY what I have been saying.

Thank you for providing this (even though I realized you did not read it before posting.

In the Bible mercy is favor (to "find favor with God" IS to find mercy y because favor is not earned).

Propitiation (NOUN) IS the atoning sacrifice (in the passage I gave this IS Christ.

Great link.

And the pagans did believe that their gods coukd be manipulated by men, and they could appease wrath or gain favor by offering a propitiation.

I did read it, as the wreath of god must be appeased, must be accounted for towards the lost sinner before there can ne any justification made

 

[JesusFan]

I think you have correctly identified the problem, good post.

Evidence would be when JonC keeps repeating god will not judge another for anothers sins, will not bring to blame someone not guilty of the sin, so woudl not be any way to have the sinless lamb of god per him get that wrath of God, yet if the atonement of the Cross was not Pst, then again, where and how did that deserved wrath towards us get propiated?

 

[Zaatar71]

Evidence would be when JonC keeps repeating god will not judge another for anothers sins, will not bring to blame someone not guilty of the sin, so woudl not be any way to have the sinless lamb of god per him get that wrath of God, yet if the atonement of the Cross was not Pst, then again, where and how did that deserved wrath towards us get propiated?

He cannot answer the question because truth has eluded him. In his story, a Holy God does not have to fully punish each and every sin. In his world God can generally punish some sins, and just dismiss other sins??? he gets the whole fall wrong. he gets Romans 3;23 wrong, he gets rom5:12-21 wrong, he gets the cross wrong. If he gets all these things wrong, how can we trust anything he offers, when so many have written truth derived directly from scripture?

 

[JonC]

I did read it, as the wreath of god must be appeased, must be accounted for towards the lost sinner before there can ne any justification made

I understand your philosophy. But I am talking about God's Word, not philosophy.

Why do you believe the wrath of God (the God of the Bible, not a 16th - 17th Century French judge) must be appeased?

 

[Zaatar71]

I understand your philosophy.

JF. notice, He calls your teaching philosophy as if that negates the verses you and Martin offered him over and over, and then he offers his philosophy that no one anywhere has suggested as a healthy philosophy, or remotely biblical,lol

But I am talking about God's Word, not philosophy

No, you are actually distorting God's word to fit your anti scriptural mode

.

Why do you believe the wrath of God (the God of the Bible, not a 16th - 17th Century French judge) must be appeased?

he can answer for himself, and in fact has many times. He presents the fact that the biblical God is just and going to punish all sin ever commited. You just seem to be in what is known as unbelief.

 

[JonC]

Evidence would be when JonC keeps repeating god will not judge another for anothers sins, will not bring to blame someone not guilty of the sin, so woudl not be any way to have the sinless lamb of god per him get that wrath of God, yet if the atonement of the Cross was not Pst, then again, where and how did that deserved wrath towards us get propiated?

I have answered this several times and several times directly to you.

Scripture does not say the wrath of God gets propitiated.

God's wrath is against the wicked.
God conformes us into the image of Christ
God recreates us in Christ
God gives us a new heart and a new spirit
God will refine us as gold and silver are regined

We must die to the flesh and be made alive in Christ
We must repent, turn from evil and to God
We must be born of the Spirit
We must be made alive in Christ

God will judge the wicked on "the Day of Wrath"
God will separate the people on that Day
God will punish the wicked on the Day of Judgmeny

Christ became a life giving Spirit
In Christ there is no condemnation

If, on the day of judgment, you remain wicked then you will face condemnation

If you have been conformed into the image of Christ, been made a new creation, been born of the Spirit, been refined, died to the flesh then you will live.


Christ IS the Propitiation for human sin.
God set forth Christ AS a Propitiation
In Him we escape the wrath to come
In Him we are reconciled to God.


You hold an "easy believism" that rejects the reality of being made into the image of Christ, being made a new creation not guilty of the sins of the old creation.

The reason is you desire philosophy because this makes no demand of you.

 

[Zaatar71]

Evidence would be when JonC keeps repeating god will not judge another for anothers sins, will not bring to blame someone not guilty of the sin, so woudl not be any way to have the sinless lamb of god per him get that wrath of God, yet if the atonement of the Cross was not Pst, then again, where and how did that deserved wrath towards us get propiated?

Notice how John posts partial verse not even in dispute, the rewords others to try and justify his nonsense. You see this in post 48..he lists things no one is asking about! he then changes the concept that Paul gave us in Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
he has been asked dozens of times , what happens to the wrath that was upon all of us? he skips over it and says...the wicked will be punished, ignoring the wrath that was upon us also.LOL We are not supposed to notice how he skips past it, look at all his posts. he has the same M.O. ship the real question, then offer verses no one is asking about, then claim you only go by scripture, sad and laughable at the same time.

 

[JesusFan]

I understand your philosophy. But I am talking about God's Word, not philosophy.

Why do you believe the wrath of God (the God of the Bible, not a 16th - 17th Century French judge) must be appeased?

Why do you keep denying the word of the Lord regarding this?
The wrath of God is a fearsome and terrifying thing. Only those who have been covered by the blood of Christ, shed for us on the cross, can be assured that God’s wrath will never fall on them. “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9).

What is the biblical understanding of the wrath of God? | GotQuestions.org

What is the biblical understanding of the wrath of God? Why is God wrathful? How can God have wrath and love at the same time?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[JesusFan]

I have answered this several times and several times directly to you.

Scripture does not say the wrath of God gets propitiated.

God's wrath is against the wicked.
God conformes us into the image of Christ
God recreates us in Christ
God gives us a new heart and a new spirit
God will refine us as gold and silver are regined

We must die to the flesh and be made alive in Christ
We must repent, turn from evil and to God
We must be born of the Spirit
We must be made alive in Christ

God will judge the wicked on "the Day of Wrath"
God will separate the people on that Day
God will punish the wicked on the Day of Judgmeny

Christ became a life giving Spirit
In Christ there is no condemnation

If, on the day of judgment, you remain wicked then you will face condemnation

If you have been conformed into the image of Christ, been made a new creation, been born of the Spirit, been refined, died to the flesh then you will live.


Christ IS the Propitiation for human sin.
God set forth Christ AS a Propitiation
In Him we escape the wrath to come
In Him we are reconciled to God.


You hold an "easy believism" that rejects the reality of being made into the image of Christ, being made a new creation not guilty of the sins of the old creation.

The reason is you desire philosophy because this makes no demand of you.

Did Jesus experience seperation from the father while upon that Cross? Did he drink of that cup of wrath of the OT prophets foretold?

In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prays, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39, ESV). The “cup” Jesus refers to is the bitterness of God’s wrath that Jesus would consume on our behalf. Jesus was sinless (1 Peter 2:22), so He was not handed the cup because He had sinned or disobeyed the Father (John 8:29). No, He absorbed the punishment for our sins because He loved us: “He bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24, ESV).

Jesus drank the full measure of God’s wrath on the cross. He drained the cup of God’s wrath dry. Jesus suffered the punishment we deserved and in so doing removed the cup of God’s wrath from us. The cup of wrath does not threaten believers in Christ because “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1, ESV). Christ propitiated (or satisfied) God’s wrath against sin.

The cup of God’s wrath remains for those who reject Christ. In John 3:36, Jesus says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” (ESV). Having faith in Christ is the only way to avoid drinking the cup of God’s wrath.

What is the cup of God’s wrath in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

What is the cup of God’s wrath in the Bible? Why is God wrathful? How can God have wrath and love at the same time?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Marooncat79]

Once again, this is clear and unmistakable teaching taken from "what is written" among those who have been given understanding! Thanks for another edifying post.

PSA is the historical position of the church - except for some cults and the RCC

 

[Zaatar71]

PSA is the historical position of the church - except for some cults and the RCC

Yes indeed! Most of those who deny it, are outside the camp.

 

[JonC]

PSA is the historical position of the church - except for some cults and the RCC

Lol.....no. The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is far from the historical position of the church.

The historical position (pre-Anselm) is the Ransom Theory.
Post Anselm the most popular position has been Satisfactory Substitution (the Lutheran position).





The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement gained popularity but has never been the primary view of the church (unless you are talking about the Calvinistic church).