Did Jesus suffer God's wrath instead of us?

[JonC]

All can't mean all to a Calvinist! It has to be altered, changed to fit the theory.

@Charlie24

There is an illustration about putting a frog in tepid water abd increading the temperature until it willingly boils to death. I don't know if that works (I kinda doubt it) but it does work with false doctrines.

Calvinism is many theories interrelated abd interlocked. If one part of the philosophy is wrong then the whole thing falls apart.

So when challenged by a verse the Calvinist cannot question their understanding. They have to question God's words. And they have to use Calvinism as a lens to rework, reject, or theorize about Scripture - orherwise their lens woukd crack. Calvinism would fall apart.

The 16th century judicial philosophy has to be right.
The RCC doctrine carried over has to be right.

BUT "what is written" (the biblical text) has to teach something other than is written.

Calvinism can twist one verse to its theory and that's a minor disagreement. But put them all in o e place and the water goes to tepid to boiling quickly.

Look at a short list of changes Calvinists have to make by prioritizing philosophy over Scripture:

The Bible says God will not punish the righteous- Calvinism makes an exception in redemption
The Bible says God loved the world - Calvinism redefines "world"
The Bible says God set forth Christ as a Propitiation - Calvinism changes "Propitiation" to a verb
The Bible says Jesus died by the powers of evil - Calvinism changes this to "the powers of God"
The Bible equates death to "returning to the ground, dust to dust" - Calvinism redefines death
The Bible says "the elect" are those already saved - Calvinism takes an illustration of Gentile inclusion to deny God's definition.
The Bible says God will judge the wicked at Judgment - Calvinism ignores the timing
The Bible says God makes men new creations - Calvinism rejects the completeness of this statement
The Bible says Hesus is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole World - Cskvinism redefines "whole World"
The Bible says God forgives sins - Calvinism redefines "forgives"
The Bible says God forgives based on repentance (turning to God, a new heart) - Calvinism denies this
The Bible says God is not wrathful to the righteous - Calvinism denies this
The Bible says God did not withdraw His presence ftom Christ - Calvinism denies this
The Bible says Jesus died for our sins - Cslvinism adds to this
The Bible says God is just snd justifies sinners - Calvinism redefines "just"


If just one of the things Calvinists change (and thst was just a short list) to fit their philosophy is wrong then Calvinism is wrong (so is Arminianism, depending on where Calvinism failed).

 

[Zaatar71]

I don't see how you could get God pleading with Calvinists from that.

Calvin and his theory came about 1500 years later.

Here is what you said;
There's no arguing with a Calvinist, you can't show them it goes against the grain of Scripture.

They totally ignore God's pleadings in Scripture to turn from their wickedness but they don't.

The only people you mentioned here was Calvinists, you did not mention Isrrael at all. it was your post #95

The label Calvinism, does not depend on Calvin! Do you understand that?

Calvinism is just a label.....for the doctrines of grace.

 

[Brightfame52]

All can't mean all to a Calvinist! It has to be altered, changed to fit the theory.

It.càn and does, so all what? There's a difference in all and all mankind

 

[JonC]

The only people you mentioned here was Calvinists, you did not mention Isrrael at all. it was your post #95

The label Calvinism, does not depend on Calvin! Do you understand that?

Calvinism is just a label.....for the doctrines of grace.

BUT the Doctrines of Grace DO depend on the philosophy of John Calvin (as organized by Theodore Beza).

You believe parts of the Doctrines of Grace (you reject some of it....a neo- DOG).

Do you not even know the five heads, contents, and origin of the Doctrines of Grace?????

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

There is an illustration about putting a frog in tepid water abd increading the temperature until it willingly boils to death. I don't know if that works (I kinda doubt it) but it does work with false doctrines.

Calvinism is many theories interrelated abd interlocked. If one part of the philosophy is wrong then the whole thing falls apart.

So when challenged by a verse the Calvinist cannot question their understanding. They have to question God's words. And they have to use Calvinism as a lens to rework, reject, or theorize about Scripture - orherwise their lens woukd crack. Calvinism would fall apart.

The 16th century judicial philosophy has to be right.
The RCC doctrine carried over has to be right.

BUT "what is written" (the biblical text) has to teach something other than is written.

Calvinism can twist one verse to its theory and that's a minor disagreement. But put them all in o e place and the water goes to tepid to boiling quickly.

Look at a short list of changes Calvinists have to make by prioritizing philosophy over Scripture:

The Bible says God will not punish the righteous- Calvinism makes an exception in redemption
The Bible says God loved the world - Calvinism redefines "world"
The Bible says God set forth Christ as a Propitiation - Calvinism changes "Propitiation" to a verb
The Bible says Jesus died by the powers of evil - Calvinism changes this to "the powers of God"
The Bible equates death to "returning to the ground, dust to dust" - Calvinism redefines death
The Bible says "the elect" are those already saved - Calvinism takes an illustration of Gentile inclusion to deny God's definition.
The Bible says God will judge the wicked at Judgment - Calvinism ignores the timing
The Bible says God makes men new creations - Calvinism rejects the completeness of this statement
The Bible says Hesus is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole World - Cskvinism redefines "whole World"
The Bible says God forgives sins - Calvinism redefines "forgives"
The Bible says God forgives based on repentance (turning to God, a new heart) - Calvinism denies this
The Bible says God is not wrathful to the righteous - Calvinism denies this
The Bible says God did not withdraw His presence ftom Christ - Calvinism denies this
The Bible says Jesus died for our sins - Cslvinism adds to this
The Bible says God is just snd justifies sinners - Calvinism redefines "just"


If just one of the things Calvinists change (and thst was just a short list) to fit their philosophy is wrong then Calvinism is wrong (so is Arminianism, depending on where Calvinism failed).

It's a rodeo circus with these Calvinists!

 

[JonC]

It's a rodeo circus with these Calvinists!

Yep. Try asking them what word in the verses speaking of Jesus' suffering they are translating as "wrath".


This is the reason I am so insistent on leaning not on my own understanding but on every word that comes from God. I was at one time a Calvinist. IlGod reached me at just the right time, as I was in danger of being carried away by the philosophy.

But I had a bit of an advantage as I believed "what is written" (God's words) is comolete, perfect, znd the standard for our doctrine.

You would not have had to talk me me into going to God's Word. What I realized was I held two opposing beliefs - God's Word and Calvinism. So leaving Calvinism was the easy part.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 0330 GMT 1130 pm EDT