The Enemies Of The Cross of Christ:

[JesusFan]

If you watch a police show, and there is a judge ruling about two criminals, the criminals are both guilty,but the judges let's one go free, and sends the other one to prison with no chance for parole! You would say that Judge was unjust! This is not rocket science

He decides to let one murderer go free die to him having a change of heart, is sorry, confesses, agrees to do better, yet how would that balance the scales of justice though?

 

[JonC]

I hope so. No doubt you will tell me if I don't. I can't help noticing that you have quoted no Scripture here. this seems to be your own opinion. I would have liked to see how you marry your opinion to the various references to JUdgment in the Bible. But we'll get there, God willing.

OK.

I am glad to hear this, but it is not clear to me that you agree it, and how exactly you reconcile some of your earlier comments. I shall be glad to hear you on this.

This then is where we disagree (that didn't take long, did it?). What you are looking at is the situation after judgment. Even after we are born anew, we are still sinners (Romans 7:7ff; Gal. 5:16-18; 1 John 1:5-10), but 'The blood of Jesus Christ... cleanses us from all sin....... And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous' (2:1). 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...' (Romans 8:1).
In the 'Great White Throne Judgment of Rev. 20:11-15, we read that '...The dead were judged according to their works, by the things that were written in the books,' and that '...anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.' We learn from various places that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who will actually be doing the judging (Matt. 16:27; John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 14:9; 2 Cor. 5:10). Before I go any further, I would like your comments on what I have written so far.

These are things that have happened to us at the New Birth (2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 6:2; 2 Cor. 3:18, and yet we still sin.

As I have pointed out, even Christians are still sinners. It is more to the point to say that there is no just acquittal. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from our sins; by His wounds we are healed; the chastisement (NIV, ESV 'punishment') for our peace was upon Him.


I would add nothing to divine justification. It seems to me that you subtract from it because divine justice is entirely based upon the cross (as I have shown in the past and will show again here)

I follow the Bible; it seems to me that you don't. Where will you quote me as saying that the purpose of justice is to avenge the violation of the law? I have no recollection of ever writing that. I don't even like to use the term 'judicial philosophy' in connetion with God. He is the very essence of justice. I suppose that Deut. 25:1 might set out divine justice; it is complicated by the fact that 'there is none righteous, no not one.' So if strict justice were applied to mankind there would be no justification for anyone. Hence we have the Lord Jesus Christ being set forth as a propitiation.

My belief is that at Judgment God will have succeeded in transforming us into the image of Christ, we will have been made a new creation in Christ, we will have been refined, we will have been cleansed of all unrighteous.

God will justly condemn the wicked and justify the righteous.

I believe that what we have is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.

This does nor contradict the law (the wicked will be punished and the righteous justified) but the law is fulfilled and we are saved aoart from the law.


At Judgment, if Jesus was not punished for the sins of the "old man", the new creation who is at that point actually in the image of Christ IS himself righteous because he is made. new creation in Christ. The "old man" who you say has to have his sins punished no longer exists.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My belief is that at Judgment God will have succeeded in transforming us into the image of Christ, we will have been made a new creation in Christ, we will have been refined, we will have been cleansed of all unrighteous.

The flaw here is that the dead will be 'judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books' (Rev. 20:13-14), not according to how they may have been transformed. The only way to avoid disaster is to be found in Christ. 'For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ; cf. Heb 7:26-27] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.' Therefore God sees no sin in us because we have been clothed with Isaiah's robe of righteousness and garments of salvation.

God will justly condemn the wicked and justify the righteous.

I believe that what we have is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.

This does nor contradict the law (the wicked will be punished and the righteous justified) but the law is fulfilled and we are saved aoart from the law.

I don't think so. God would be unjust because He would have justified the ungodly by cleansing them without any atonement. But He declares in Isaiah 65:6-7, '"Behold, it is written before Me: I will not keep silence but repay - even repay into their bosom - your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together," says the LORD.'

At Judgment, if Jesus was not punished for the sins of the "old man", the new creation who is at that point actually in the image of Christ IS himself righteous because he is made. new creation in Christ. The "old man" whom you say has to have his sins punished no longer exists.

I have read this sentence through several times, and it does not appear to make sense "If Jesus was not punished...." then what?
However, the whole gist of your argument here is that the Lord Jesus died for nothing. He did not need to be a propitiation by His blood because, you say, God can be just by other means. I don't believe He can. If there was any way to be just and yet justify sinners, there was no reason for Christ to suffer and die.

 

[JesusFan]

The flaw here is that the dead will be 'judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books' (Rev. 20:13-14), not according to how they may have been transformed. The only way to avoid disaster is to be found in Christ. 'For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ; cf. Heb 7:26-27] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.' Therefore God sees no sin in us because we have been clothed with Isaiah's robe of righteousness and garments of salvation.

I don't think so. God would be unjust because He would have justified the ungodly by cleansing them without any atonement. But He declares in Isaiah 65:6-7, '"Behold, it is written before Me: I will not keep silence but repay - even repay into their bosom - your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together," says the LORD.'

I have read this sentence through several times, and it does not appear to make sense "If Jesus was not punished...." then what?
However, the whole gist of your argument here is that the Lord Jesus died for nothing. He did not need to be a propitiation by His blood because, you say, God can be just by other means. I don't believe He can. If there was any way to be just and yet justify sinners, there was no reason for Christ to suffer and die.

The Father cannot declare a lost sinner to be now justify unless/until His divine Wrath is fully satisfied, and the sin debt is paid in full , as JonC theology seems to say God will save sinners by just accepting their repenting and asking to get saved, so says OK, my stored up wrath now just disappears

 

[JonC]

The flaw here is that the dead will be 'judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books' (Rev. 20:13-14), not according to how they may have been transformed. The only way to avoid disaster is to be found in Christ. 'For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ; cf. Heb 7:26-27] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.' Therefore God sees no sin in us because we have been clothed with Isaiah's robe of righteousness and garments of salvation.

I don't think so. God would be unjust because He would have justified the ungodly by cleansing them without any atonement. But He declares in Isaiah 65:6-7, '"Behold, it is written before Me: I will not keep silence but repay - even repay into their bosom - your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together," says the LORD.'

I have read this sentence through several times, and it does not appear to make sense "If Jesus was not punished...." then what?
However, the whole gist of your argument here is that the Lord Jesus died for nothing. He did not need to be a propitiation by His blood because, you say, God can be just by other means. I don't believe He can. If there was any way to be just and yet justify sinners, there was no reason for Christ to suffer and die.

That is not a "flaw".

What are the works of the Spirpt that those conformed into the image of Christ has done?
These are "treasures", they are works together rewarded.
What about the wicked? Their "deeds are evil".
What about the "old man"? Again, evil but already "put to death".


You lack comprehension of my belief.

It all centers on Christ and His work of redemption.

Christ had to die under the bondage of sin and death, as one of us, to free us from its bondage.
He had to bevome a life giving spirit.
He had to be that second Adam.

 

[JonC]

Think about it for a moment. @Martin Marprelate

You believe that God took our sins (our past actions, our evil deeds we committed) and put thrm on Jesus to punish them there.

I stole a ball. God took "stole a ball" from me and put "stole a ball" on Jesus.
God then punished "stole a ball" on Jesus.
That does not change the fact that I stole the ball. I am still guilty.
So you say God took my guilt (my "having done it") and put "having done on" on Jesus and pretended Jesus did it.

Your theory does not work. It sounds logical if you say it enough times and ignore reality.

1. Sin and guilt are not material things. One cannot take an action committed and put that on another person who did not do that action. We are guilty because we did something. That is not a material thing but a fact that we did an action.

2. This does nothing to address the "old man". You do not acceot the idea that we are made new creations in Christ (you continually go back to what the "old man" did, ignoring the "old man" no longer exists at Judgment).

BUT some Calvinists (probably moat) acceot that God has predestined us to be conformed into the image of Christ.

They still have a problem. This means Christ's suffering the punishment of the "old man" had nothing to do with redemption at all. The "old man" is NOT redeemed. He dies and we are made anew.

Your view does not necessitate the cross in terms of redemption. It does not need Christ to have died at all.
It merely needs God to have redeemed us through the law and given the law what it demanded of God.

Instead, Scripture presents Jesus as bearing our sin (not God pretending that Jesus sinned but Jesus actualky coming under the bondage of our sin), suffering and dying under this bondage, raising to live having conquered this evil and freeing us from its bondage, removing the "sting" of death, and becoming a life giving Spirit.


We do not need to play pretend. God does not need to step away from reality. Simply read the Bible and consider tge possibility that what God said happened and happens may really be true.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That is not a "flaw".

What are the works of the Spirpt that those conformed into the image of Christ has done?

The flaw is that you are placing all this not at the judgment, but after it. Read Rev. 20:12, which I posted earlier, again. 'The dead were judged according to what they had done.' If God can simply forgive sins without a propitiation or atoning sacrifice, then not only does Rom. 3:25-26 not belong in the Bible, but Christ doesn't belong there either!

These are "treasures", they are works together rewarded.
What about the wicked? Their "deeds are evil".
What about the "old man"? Again, evil but already "put to death".

Well, if I were one of these 'wicked' people, I would complain: "How come that Martin Marprelate did all those wicked things and yet is forgiven, while we are not?" And the devil himself would complain: "How can you just let one set of people off and then 'conform them into the image of Christ, while another set, who were no more wicked than some of the others, are sent to hell?

You lack comprehension of my belief.

Well this is your opportunity to explain yourself.

It all centers on Christ and His work of redemption.

Christ had to die under the bondage of sin and death, as one of us, to free us from its bondage.

This sounds rather like Penal Substitution to me. How does it differ?

He had to bevome a life giving spirit.
He had to be that second Adam.

This is what I want you to explain - in detail, please! Why, under your scheme, did Christ have to die? Why, if God is going to make us all new creations anyway, did Jesus have to suffer and die in the terrible way He did?. And why did He refuse the wine mixed with Myrrh (Mark 15:23)?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Think about it for a moment. @Martin Marprelate

You believe that God took our sins (our past actions, our evil deeds we committed) and put thrm on Jesus to punish them there.

I stole a ball. God took "stole a ball" from me and put "stole a ball" on Jesus.
God then punished "stole a ball" on Jesus.
That does not change the fact that I stole the ball. I am still guilty.
So you say God took my guilt (my "having done it") and put "having done on" on Jesus and pretended Jesus did it.

Your theory does not work. It sounds logical if you say it enough times and ignore reality.

First of all, your likening sin to stealing a ball is not helpful in coming to the truth. Proverbs 21:24 applies. However,our problem is that it is not a theory, it's the word of God. 'All we, like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity [ball-stealing and all] of us all' (Isaiah 53:6). 'He Himself bore our sins [ball-stealing and all] in His own body on the tree' (1 Peter 2:24).

1. Sin and guilt are not material things. One cannot take an action committed and put that on another person who did not do that action. We are guilty because we did something. That is not a material thing but a fact that we did an action.

So you say, yet God has done exactly that. He has taken our sins and put them on the Lord Jesus. Your theory does not stand the scrutiny of Scripture

2. This does nothing to address the "old man". You do not acceot the idea that we are made new creations in Christ (you continually go back to what the "old man" did, ignoring the "old man" no longer exists at Judgment).

[/QUOTE]
Yet though we are new creations in Christ Jesus, we are still the same people (or do you think that JonC and Martin Marprelate will be obliterated?). God has to be 'Just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

BUT some Calvinists (probably moat) acceot that God has predestined us to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Probably all do; it's in the Bible.

They still have a problem. This means Christ's suffering the punishment of the "old man" had nothing to do with redemption at all. The "old man" is NOT redeemed. He dies and we are made anew.

Please! Read Romans 3:25-26 again. God cannot deny Himself; He must be just, and seen to be just.

Your view does not necessitate the cross in terms of redemption. It does not need Christ to have died at all.
It merely needs God to have redeemed us through the law and given the law what it demanded of God.

The law demands that the soul that sins shall die. 'But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us' (Romans 5:8).

Instead, Scripture presents Jesus as bearing our sin (not God pretending that Jesus sinned but Jesus actualky coming under the bondage of our sin), suffering and dying under this bondage, raising to live having conquered this evil and freeing us from its bondage, removing the "sting" of death, and becoming a life giving Spirit.

Your mocking does you no credit. It was God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ, who came to satisfy His own justice and pay the penalty for our sins (cf. Acts 20:28). Where does the Bible talk about the Lord Jesus "coming under the bondage of our sins"? What does that even mean?

We do not need to play pretend. God does not need to step away from reality. Simply read the Bible and consider tge possibility that what God said happened and happens may really be true.

I suggest you do just that.

 

[JonC]

The flaw is that you are placing all this not at the judgment, but after it. Read Rev. 20:12, which I posted earlier, again. 'The dead were judged according to what they had done.' If God can simply forgive sins without a propitiation or atoning sacrifice, then not only does Rom. 3:25-26 not belong in the Bible, but Christ doesn't belong there either!

You are still not comprehending what I am saying.

1. God does NOT just "simply forgive".

Scripture tells us what God requires ("repentance", "turning away from wickedness", "turning to God", "a new heart", "dying to sin", having "a mind set on the Spirit").

The Bible says IF those things happen that God will forgive us. My view is that God actually majes those things happen.

2. I DID read the passage AND I agreed with it.

At Judgment we WILL be judged according to what we have done.

But at Judgment we will not be "the old man". We will be new creations in Christ. We will be in His image. Our deeds will be the works of the Spirit. God will not hold us accountable for what somebody who no longer exist did (the "old man"). We must die to sin. We must put to death the flesh (this "old man").

3. You seem to want to keep your sins, to keep that "old man" and have God justify this sin. He will not.

At Judgment if you stand before God as the "old creation" set on the flesh you WILL perish.

But of you "put to death the deeds of the flesh", if you "die to sin", if you ARE NOT the "old man" but instead have been made a new creation in Christ and are conformed to His image then you will be justified.

 

[JonC]

First of all, your likening sin to stealing a ball is not helpful in coming to the truth. Proverbs 21:24 applies. However,our problem is that it is not a theory, it's the word of God. 'All we, like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity [ball-stealing and all] of us all' (Isaiah 53:6). 'He Himself bore our sins [ball-stealing and all] in His own body on the tree' (1 Peter 2:24).

So you say, yet God has done exactly that. He has taken our sins and put them on the Lord Jesus. Your theory does not stand the scrutiny of Scripture

Yet though we are new creations in Christ Jesus, we are still the same people (or do you think that JonC and Martin Marprelate will be obliterated?). God has to be 'Just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

Probably all do; it's in the Bible.

Please! Read Romans 3:25-26 again. God cannot deny Himself; He must be just, and seen to be just.

The law demands that the soul that sins shall die. 'But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us' (Romans 5:8).

Your mocking does you no credit. It was God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ, who came to satisfy His own justice and pay the penalty for our sins (cf. Acts 20:28). Where does the Bible talk about the Lord Jesus "coming under the bondage of our sins"? What does that even mean?

I suggest you do just that.
[/QUOTE]
No, stealing is a sin. If is a violation of God's command. Why you would think otherwise is odd.

 

[JonC]

The law demands that the soul that sins shall die. 'But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us' (Romans 5:8).

You just misapplied God's Word.

The reference is Ezekiel 18.

The passage begins with the law of Israel and God telling them that the person or soul who sins shall die, that they will not judge the son based on the father's crime. God commands them to not use a saying.

BUT half through the chapter God explains to Israel "His ways".

God tells them that He will hold them accountable for their sins - unless they repent from evil and turn to Him. God even tells them this requires a "new heart". And God says if this occurs He will forgive their sins.


But you flat out rejected that God forgives us based in this "new heart", that we are forgiven because we are made into Christ's image, made "new creations" in Christ.

Instead you insist that the "new creation" is really the "old man" who has had Christ suffered his punishment. That is completely unbiblical.