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Dominion vs determinism

Psalty

Active Member
In Genesis 12, we find Abram, living in Canaan [Haran] doing great things for the Lord. Wait, no he wasn’t. In fact, he was an idol worshiper, as Joshua 24:2 alludes to. Here was this idol worshiper who God came to, took him from everything he knew, and made him a father of many nations…Abrahamic Covenant. There was nothing in Abram that made him stand out in the sight of God. In fact, he was in rank rebellion, worshiping idols.
Chosen for what? To salvation? or to bring the Seed you mentioned first that will bring salvation to all who have faith in Christ, like Abraham whose faith was credited as righteousness(Rom 4).

You cant take unconditional election for service and make it into unconditional salvation.
Another clear indicator that unconditional election is found throughout the Bible. From him came Isaac, then Jacob (Israel), and then this leads up to them being blessed by one Pharaoh, and then later enslaved by another.
I dont disagree that God can and does choose things. The question is as it concerns salvation, what has He decided? He has predestined that all who are in Christ will be conformed to the image of His son, as Eph 1:5 says.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Absolutely. As I wrote, the LORD will do with me as He pleases, and I am quite content to have committed my whole salvation to Him, and not on something I have done; thus, regardless of how much you gnash your teeth at the gospel of Christ that I proclaim on this board and elsewhere, I have a good hope (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

But as you say it is just a hope.

But can 2th 2:16-17 really apply to you? Those words apply to those that have freely trusted in God for their salvation.

So the reality is that your

Whereas I have the assurance of my salvation.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
God did not believe for me, but I only believe and I only repent because God gave the gifts of faith in Christ's finished works and repentance of dead works to me; I didn't somehow well it up from within me by my own non-existent "free will" strength.

You just contradicted yourself in this post

"God did not believe for me"

"God gave the gifts of faith"

If He has to give you the faith then He is believing for you. It is not your faith but His.

Odd that you cannot see the contradiction.

What is even more odd is that you say you believe the bible and yet you disagree with what the Holy Spirit said through Paul
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
If God did not choose me before the world, then I will most certainly go to Hell. But I have committed to Him my whole salvation. The LORD will do what He pleases with me. He is the Creator, I am but a mere creature.
This is true as a fact. But I think it is also a fact that He will save those who come to him and you have that as an absolute promise, and yes, as an absolute invitation. And the fact that you come to Him is your best evidence of your election. But in a sense that indeed is something that you do, even if God gets all the glory for you doing so. Calvinism has "layers" as it were, with some making such an emphasis on God's sovereignty that they leave nothing for men to do to be saved - and they include believing. But they do believe and so most extreme Calvinists who have normal human self esteem come to the conclusion that they are indeed elect. But what if they don't. I think of William Cowper who struggled with this. He wrote a poem called "The Castaway", which is about a man swept overboard and who struggles for awhile and then sinks, with no hope of rescue. Sad as that poem is, the last stanzas take a different turn, and knowing Cowper's struggles, it makes for one of the saddest things you will ever read:

"I therefore purpose not, or dream,
Decanting on his fate,
To give the melancholy theme
A more enduring date:
But misery still delights to trace
It's semblance in another's case.

No voice divine the storm allay'd,
No light propitious shown;
When, snatched from all effectual aid,
We perish'd, each alone;
But I beneath a rougher sea,
And whelm'd in deeper gulfs than he."

I hope it turned out alright for Mr. Cowper but we need to keep in mind that Calvinism without a real and actual offer of the gospel to anyone who will believe has committed a serious error in it's application to people, even if it might be correct in the metaphysics of the theology. There is indeed something you must do. You must believe in Christ, and you have a warrant to tell people so.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
I have no idea how human foibles have anything to do with this discussion.

Except that I notice on this board that those opposed to the sovereignty of God to do what He wills with His creation have a false idea of God that He is really not much different than humans when it comes to failing - their conception of God is that He can fail, just like we humans, and not accomplish His will.
Well, He is able to graft them in, but he hasn’t, so He can’t decide or He has to die again to save those He didn’t die to redeem but is able to, or you guys can quit trying mental gymnastics to make Calvinism work.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
If He has to give you the faith then He is believing for you.

No. I actually believe. Just as every breath I take is given to me by God, but it is my actual physical lungs that expand to take in the breath, and contract to expel the breath, and then the cycle repeats as long as God gives me the breaths.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Because you took the credit for committing.

It is no credit to me. God gave the gift of committing all of my salvation to Christ. Just as every breath I take is given to me by God, but it is my actual physical lungs that expand to take in the breath, and contract to expel the breath, and then the cycle repeats as long as God gives me the breaths.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Calvinism has "layers" as it were, with some making such an emphasis on God's sovereignty that they leave nothing for men to do to be saved

Salvation is 100% conditioned on Christ and His finished work, and 0% conditioned on man. God's elect fulfill no conditions. They can't. No fallen child of Adam can do so.

After the Holy Spirit regenerates them under the hearing of the gospel of Christ, God's elect are given the gift of faith in Christ and His finished work, and they place their faith in Christ and His finished work. And after the Holy Spirit regenerates them, God's elect are given the gift of the repentance of the dead works they formerly trusted in, and they repent of the dead works they formerly trusted in.

They are not meeting any conditions to be saved, they are showing the God-given fruit that comes from being saved.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
They are not meeting any conditions to be saved, they are showing the God-given fruit that comes from being saved.
But they are showing it, which means they are showing it by an actual, identifiable action which they willed to do. A supernatural work upon a man's will results in a man believing and repenting - this I grant. But faith is so linked to salvation that the great Calvinist theologians like Edwards and Owen said that it is a "condition" when thought of in that way. Some of you on here go too far and in an honest effort to honor God's sovereignty you eliminate all actual interaction between God and man, without which, a meaningful relationship is impossible. We are created as rational creatures and by the very nature of that, interaction with God will be on our part, rational discourse. All I'm saying is that some branches of Calvinism go to the point of discounting this and the result is a bare naked belief that you are elect - because security based on the fact that you believe is "I" centered. This is a distortion, at least in the way it's being communicated.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Some of you on here go too far and in an honest effort to honor God's sovereignty you eliminate all actual interaction between God and man, without which, a meaningful relationship is impossible.

I can't speak for others, but I do no such thing.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
because security based on the fact that you believe is "I" centered.

No one should base their security on "I" in any way, shape, or form.

My security is in Christ and His finished work on my behalf and on the behalf of all of God's elect, whom He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
This is a distortion, at least in the way it's being communicated.

Considering that none of us on this board are divinely inspired in what we write, and all of us on this board on fallen, vile, sinners(even those who are God's elect since they are still living in fleshly bodies), communication will not be without difficulties.
 

Psalty

Active Member
No one should base their security on "I" in any way, shape, or form.

My security is in Christ and His finished work on my behalf and on the behalf of all of God's elect, whom He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety.
“God picked ME”. “I’M elect”. “He chose ME from the foundation of the world.” “He drew ME.” “MY particular sins were covered.”

Me, me, me. I, I, I. Thats Calvinism for you… YOUR the special chosen one! Look how much better you are since God chose You for a super special reason that only He knows. Super-special!

Nothing gives more glory and pride to man than calvinism.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
“God picked ME”. “I’M elect”. “He chose ME from the foundation of the world.” “He drew ME.” “MY particular sins were covered.”

Me, me, me. I, I, I. Thats Calvinism for you… YOUR the special chosen one! Look how much better you are since God chose You for a super special reason that only He knows. Super-special!

Nothing gives more glory and pride to man than calvinism.

If God had not chosen a people to save, then no one would be saved. Period. It is that plain and simple in the Bible.

If you have a problem with how I - a wretched, vile, sinner - attempt to communicate that Biblical fact, I understand. There is nothing that I do that is not stained with the corruption of my flesh.
 
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