Women are Not to Teach or Usurp Authority...

[David Lamb]

Neither men nor women are to use their position to dominate the people they are over.

A quote from Deacons post #28

"but the teaching in which women were engaged was characterised by an overbearing attitude. In other words, the quiet demeanour and recognition of authority which are to characterise the learner are contrasted with teaching in a manner which is heavy-handed and abuses authority. αὐθεντεῖν as a reference to ‘authority’ (leadership) unrelated to teaching would exceed the scope of the discussion initiated at v. 11. It is, therefore, more likely that the verb characterises the nature of the teaching rather than the role of the women in church leadership in general" Marshall, I. Howard, and Philip H. Towner. 2004. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles. International Critical Commentary. London; New York: T&T Clark International.

The restriction is not who can preach but rather their attitude when they do so.

I would just say that I was not addressing the matter of who should preach, but answering Deacon and Ben1445. Deacon had written:

"Therefore, women should not be placed in such a position to dominate over men."

Ben1445 replied:

"i.e. not pastors."

So I replied as I did, saying that according to Scripture, pastors and elders are not to dominate over the flock.

 

[Silverhair]

So I replied as I did, saying that according to Scripture, pastors and elders are not to dominate over the flock.

And I agree. Actually no pastor is to dominate over their flock.

So what Paul was saying applies to both men and women pastors.

 

[Kai]

So what Paul was saying applies to both men and women pastors.

Paul focuses specifically on men when he outlines the requirements for pastoral leadership and describes men who care for their congregations. Setting aside any assumptions about the culture during that time, and relying solely on Scripture, are there any biblical instances where women fulfill these identical roles in that same context?

The answer should be either yes or no.

 

[Silverhair]

Paul focuses specifically on men when he outlines the requirements for pastoral leadership and describes men who care for their congregations. Setting aside any assumptions about the culture during that time, and relying solely on Scripture, are there any biblical instances where women fulfill these identical roles in that same context?

The answer should be either yes or no.

You cannot ignore the time and culture if you want to actually understand what Paul was dealing with and what he meant.

to exercise authority over αὐθεντεῖν authentein G831

G831
αὐθεντέω
authenteō
1x: to have authority over, domineer, 1Ti_2:12. Mounce

to use or exercise authority or power over as an autocrat, to domineer (1Ti_2:12). The Complete WordStudy Dictionary

one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; Thayer's Unabridged Greek

1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one Combined Strong's & Brown-Driver-Briggs

Paul was saying that he would not allow a woman to be autocrat, to domineer, exercise dominion over the flock. The same would apply to any man who was a pastor also.

It is only because of the misuse of the text that we have a particular theological view that women cannot be a pastor of a church.
The text does not support their view and they should know better.

 

[Kai]

You cannot ignore the time and culture if you want to actually understand what Paul was dealing with and what he meant.

The time and culture are irrelevant. If indeed you call yourself a Protestant, you have to be consistent with that, which means your beliefs can't be shaped by anything outside of Scripture alone.

to exercise authority over αὐθεντεῖν authentein G831

It seems that you're attempting to use "authority" in the same way cult leaders do, having absolute control over every aspect of their followers' lives. If that's what you mean, then yes, neither a man nor a woman should behave that way in the church. So that doesn't help your case.

The biblical meaning of "authority" is quite different:

Hebrews 13:17 (ESV)
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

The burden of proof still lies with you to demonstrate from the Bible that the leaders we are expected to willingly and joyfully submit to should include not only qualified men but also women.

 

[Silverhair]

The time and culture are irrelevant. If indeed you call yourself a Protestant, you have to be consistent with that, which means your beliefs can't be shaped by anything outside of Scripture alone.

You say the time and culture are irrelevant which just shows that you really do not understand biblical study. I do not call myself a Protestant I am a Baptist. I do not shape my views from outside scripture but it appears that you have done so.

It seems that you're attempting to use "authority" in the same way cult leaders do, having absolute control over every aspect of their followers' lives. If that's what you mean, then yes, neither a man nor a woman should behave that way in the church. So that doesn't help your case.

The biblical meaning of "authority" is quite different:

Actually I am using it just as the bible shows it should be used. Who says that it means they have absolute control of every aspect of their lives? You do like to exaggerate in your attempt to support your view.

Do you think you know better than William D. Mounce , The Complete WordStudy Dictionary by Spiros Zodhiates, Thayer's Unabridged Greek, and the Combined Strong's & Brown-Driver-Briggs dictionaries. That would seem to be a bit arrogant of you.

The burden of proof still lies with you to demonstrate from the Bible that the leaders we are expected to willingly and joyfully submit to should include not only qualified men but also women.

Actually all I have to do is use scripture and it has shown that the view you are holding to is wrong.

You keep saying trust scripture then that is what you should do. You are the one that has had his view shaped by views from outside of Scripture.

 

[David Lamb]

And I agree. Actually no pastor is to dominate over their flock.

So what Paul was saying applies to both men and women pastors.

I don't agree that the Bible teaches women pastors, but that wasn't the point of my post as I said.

 

[Silverhair]

@Armchair Apologist ,@David Lamb , @Salty , @Deacon , @Ben1445 ,@Kai

I have always sought the truth of God's word and have been open to changing my ideas if shown they contradict the word of God.

In doing more reading on 1 Ti 2 this morning it was pointed out that Paul used two Greek words for man.
anthropos, G444 meaning a human being, whether male or female and
aner, G435 meaning with reference to sex, a male
but this is often lost in translation so you have to look at the Greek or use an Interlinear.
In doing so it is evident that Paul is saying that only men are to be in positions of authority whether to lift hands in prayer or to lead the congregation.

How far is this to be taken.

On the other side of the argument is the word diakonos G1249 meaning one who renders service to another.

These include Phoebe Rom 16:1 servant, Tychicus Eph 6:21 minister, Epaphras Col 1:7 servant, Paul Col 1:23 minister and in 1Ti 3:8 & 3:12 deacons.

So while Paul's view is clear in 1Ti 2 it becomes muddied what you look at what else he wrote.

Does this exclude women from elder, deacon even pastor. Perhaps but as we know there are differing views.

As it stands for now I can not say one way or the other.

 

[Ascetic X]

Have you seen videos or been in a church with a woman as pastor or preacher?

I have and it was uncomfortable.

My subjective feeling was that something was wrong.

 

[Kai]

@Silverhair, I definitely don't doubt your sincerity in understanding God's word better, but I and others are only trying to help you see these important distinctions.

How far is this to be taken.

You've correctly pointed out that anthropos encompasses humanity broadly. That said, when Paul lays out certain requirements that apply specifically to men—like being a husband—doesn't that naturally mean women would fall outside those particular qualifications?

Does this exclude women from elder, deacon even pastor. Perhaps but as we know there are differing views.

You've also correctly pointed out that various women served as deacons (or deaconesses) in Scripture. However, the office of deacon functions very differently than the office of pastor/elder and comes with a separate set of responsibilities.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair, I definitely don't doubt your sincerity in understanding God's word better, but I and others are only trying to help you see these important distinctions.



You've correctly pointed out that anthropos encompasses humanity broadly. That said, when Paul lays out certain requirements that apply specifically to men—like being a husband—doesn't that naturally mean women would fall outside those particular qualifications?



You've also correctly pointed out that various women served as deacons (or deaconesses) in Scripture. However, the office of deacon functions very differently than the office of pastor/elder and comes with a separate set of responsibilities.

Just as I have attempted to point out other important distinctions.

If you are going to study His word then you have to look at all of His word.

This is what I have tried to do.

Many fine scholars have come to different conclusions as to what Paul was saying in 1Ti 2:11-12.

If they cannot come to an agreement then it is doubtful that we will either.

You want to see women as basically less than man when it comes to the gospel message, I do not concur.

I believe God will use whom He wants when and where He wants whether male or female.

From what I have studied the case is not clear as I pointed out to you in my post. That is why I continue to study His word.

 

[Kai]

You want to see women as basically less than man when it comes to the gospel message, I do not concur.

But that isn't what I think. I see certain roles in the church are designed specifically for men, and other roles that could include women, and I don't think one role necessarily has more value than others since they are all dependent on each other.

All Paul had to do was sit down and write the inspired words down on a parchment scroll. But it was Phoebe who travelled over 700 miles to hand-deliver his letter to the churches in Rome, and if it weren't for the tremendous courage and bravery of a woman, we may not have had the Epistle to the Romans in our Bibles today.

I don't know about you, but as a man, I don't think I would have possessed the strength or the willpower to take on such an important task. Of course, these days we have it easy with email, but you get the idea.

 

[Ascetic X]

You want to see women as basically less than man when it comes to the gospel message, I do not concur.

I believe God will use whom He wants when and where He wants whether male or female.

I do not think Kai sees women as less than men when it comes to the gospel message.

The Word of God sees women as different from men when it comes to pastoring and preaching to the congregation of an assembled church.

For men to be the only gender qualified to be pastors does not mean women are inferior to men. It is a matter of proper roles.

For some reason, God wants pastors to be male, not female. Scholars have linked this preference to Eve being deceived by the serpent and women being the weaker gender.

As I stated previously, sitting under the preaching of a female pastor was uncomfortable for me. My spirit was troubled by it.

I will not condemn Beth Moore, Ann Graham Lotz, or other female preachers. But I will not attend or join any church where a woman is pastor. I attended a church briefly where lesbian deacons sometimes preached from the pulpit. It was a “reformed”, woke, “federated” Presbyterian / United Church of Christ church.

 

[Ben1445]

God has a gender preference.

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

In life and in the church there are roles that should not be mixed up.

 

[Ascetic X]

God has a gender preference.

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

In life and in the church there are roles that should not be mixed up.

Your example of gender roles refers to pagan worship!

 

[Ben1445]

Your example of gender roles refers to pagan worship!

I would call it a similarity instead of an irony. A perversion of the way God intended.

 

[Kai]

I believe the real issue here stems from the way some people try to elevate certain roles or titles beyond their intended standing. Many think of the pastor/elder position as if it's at the peak of the hierarchy—similar to a CEO or president—but that's simply not how the NT portrays it.

 

[Foxmeister]

Need I say more.

 

[Kai]

Need I say more.

@Silverhair, I hope you can at least agree that Paula White is someone who is not qualified to be a pastor/elder, and I don't say that just because she's a woman.

 

[Silverhair]

But that isn't what I think. I see certain roles in the church are designed specifically for men, and other roles that could include women, and I don't think one role necessarily has more value than others since they are all dependent on each other.

All Paul had to do was sit down and write the inspired words down on a parchment scroll. But it was Phoebe who travelled over 700 miles to hand-deliver his letter to the churches in Rome, and if it weren't for the tremendous courage and bravery of a woman, we may not have had the Epistle to the Romans in our Bibles today.

I don't know about you, but as a man, I don't think I would have possessed the strength or the willpower to take on such an important task. Of course, these days we have it easy with email, but you get the idea.

So it seems you hold to a Complementarian view. You see that in scripture whereas I see that women can fill any position that God chooses to put them in.

One thing you have to consider is that when Phoebe carried that letter to Rome she would most likely have read it out and instructed the church as to what Paul meant by what he had written. She would have first hand knowledge from being with and speaking to Paul.

In this situation she would have had to exercise authority over men so that they did not come to a wrong understanding of the message in Paul's letter.