2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Let me address "BOTH" of you with one post.

Matt 24, Jesus is telling the disciples when the "end of the world" would come and prior events, this is Jesus talking and Jesus was "BEFORE" Paul came along, OK??

Paul, on the other hand when he came revealed a "MYSTERY" which Jesus did not reveal to the disciple, that is of the "Rapture" of the Church.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Matt 24 is dealing with the trib and events leading up to the trib, the Rapture isn't mentioned at all for the simple reason the rapture isn't part of the trib time frame.

In the rapture, we meet Jesus in that air, he doesn't come completely to the earth, however when he returns he does touch the earth.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
(same place from which he ascended)

In the "Day of Christ", (pre trib) Jesus comes as the "BRIDGROOM". (in the air)

In the "Day of the Lord", (post trib, Matt 24) Jesus comes as "Lord of Lords". (mount Olives)

In the "Day of God", (post MK) Jesus comes as "King of Kings" (God on his Throne, GWT Judgment)

All three of these "Comings" are clearly defined in scripture, and all three are at different times and for different reasons.

Jews won't believe without "signs and wonders", and Jesus said he would not give any save the sign of Jonas, however the trib is full of "signs and wonders", did Jesus "lie", or does his "Leadership" (Comforter, rapture) end before the trib starts???

The NT is full of "CONTRADICTIONS" by both Jesus/scripture if the church "IS NOT" rapture "BEFORE" the trib begins.

BobRyan: //Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection
to John's day -- the one HE CALLS
"The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??//

Alright. You use in your sentence the word 'one'. The word 'one'
has several meanings. Do you mean which of the following?

1. Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection
to John's day -- the item HE CALLS
"The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

2. Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection
to John's day -- the number one HE CALLS
"The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

3. Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection
to John's day -- the "one and only one" HE CALLS
"The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

I've never figured how the term "FIRST RESURRECTION'
came to mean 'the one and only one resurrection'
That is a real streach of the word 'first'. The word 'first'
is different from the word 'one' and they denote a different set
of things. Even Chapter 20 of Revelation shows two groups in
THE FIRST RESURRECTION:

1. those who sat upon thrones (i.e. the church age saints
rewared with the reward of sitting with Christ in the Millinnum

2. those who were beheaded in the Tribulation period.

Group 1 are mostly gentile church age elect saints
Group 2 are mostly Jewish Tribualation period elect saints.

BobRyan: //For if John is RIGHT - and the Resurrection of Rev 20 is THE FIRST
resurrection (which is the one AFTER the appearing of Christ
in Rev 19 and the one that STARTS the 1000 year literal millennium)
then only the POST-trib rapture at the return of Christ FITS the model!!//

Here is the item written so it is says what you undoubtedly mean:

For if White is RIGHT - and the Resurrection of Rev 20 is THE FIRST and only
resurrection (which is the one AFTER the appearing of Christ
in Rev 19 and the one that STARTS the 1000 year literal millennium)
then only the POST-trib rapture at the return of Christ FITS the model!!


BTW, i believe in a literal millennium that is a physical millennium.
BTW, now that i've re-written it, it is wrong. If correct understanding of
John is believed, then one of the answers is a Post-trib rapture at
the return of Christ. The correct answer is both a pretribulation
rapture of the church age saints and a post-trib rapture of the Tribulation
saints.
You see, i believe in a post-trib rapture at Christs second coming
event (to destroy the Antichrist and set up a physical millinnial kingdom.)
In addition I beleive in a pretribulation rapture.
Both Christ's comings are the same day (70th week of Daniel).
Both the mostly Gentile born-again elect saints and the Tribulation
period saints are raptured/resurrected on the same day (70th week of Daniel).
Both rapture/resurrections on the Tribulation day are part of the
FIRST RESURRECTION.

BobRyan: //The Holy Spirit restrains Satan and his evil angels -- but in the near
future the Spirit of God is withdrawn from the wicked as they cross
the line of Rev 15. It is AFTER that point that we have the seven
last plagues ... //

Help us see where 'the line' is in Revelation Chapter 15.

BobRyan: //Why do you suppose that my views on the post-trib rapture do
not fully embrace and even rely upon these Bible truths?//

Itchy ears?

Originally posted by Me4Him:
//technically, the rapture is not a resurrection, //

BobRyan:
//ON the contrary - it IS a resurrection just like
the Resurrection of Christ - raised from the dead
AND THEN taken up to heaven!

1. Jesus was resurrected, but it was 40 days before he
went to heaven

2. Y'all can sit here and vary your definitions and get lots
of words done. Why not just realize you both have a different
set of definitions and go with that. BTW, neither the definitions
of Me4Him nor BobRyan (I probably agree with Bob's defs) PROVES
the pretribulation true or false.

DeafPosttrib: //Funny, pretribs pick few verses in Matthew 24, use for 'pretrib'
verse such as Matt. 24:36, and 42 telling us, no one know what
hour and day, when Christ comes, be watch and be ready. Posttrib
agree with Matt. 24:36, & 42 is speakijg of be prepared, be read
for HIS COMING, we do not know when His coming shall be.
We can do is be watch and be ready all the time. Matt. 24:36, & 42
do not give a hint, this is a 'pretrib', because Christ does not
saying that He shall come back before tribulation. But, Christ tells
us He shall come back AFTER tribulation - Matt. 24:29.//

Thank you, Brother DeafPosttrib for proving my point.
I believe that Matthew 24:31-44 speaks of the PRETRIB rapture/resurrection.
Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 24:42 speak of being prepared, not dead.
Unfortunately the post-trib only theory has 99.9% of the gentile
saints dead by the end of the tribulation.
As many as 200 Million Christians might be raptured at the beginning
of the Tribulation period compared to a couple of hundred at the
end who got overlooked ???

The postribulation rapture and Second Coming Event of Jesus is
TOTALLY PREDICTABLE; the pretribulation rapture is NOT predictable.
DeafPosttrib: " ... we do not know when His coming shall be ... "
acan only be true in a pretribulation scenario.

DeafPosttrib: //Why cannot you accept the clearing teaching
from the Bible saying
that Christ shall come again after the tribulation?//

Everybody posting on this topic believes this.
There is some variation in the understanding of what that means.
Do you need to repeat it for yourself because you are wavering?

DeafPosttrib: //Pretribs deny Matt. 24:29-31 is the clear passage saying that His
coming shall be after tribulation comes include the gathering
of the saints will be rapture after the tribulation. //

Your statement is incorrect. Some 95% of pretribs do not 'deny'
but agree with you. It is i who disagree with you. And nobody
argues against my 'proof'. In fact, most people don't even understand
the literary devise: the polysyndeton.

DeafPosttrib: //No way that you can find any hint in Matthew 24
shows pretrib coming
like as "secert coming".//

Again, you are using lame debating techniques. I've been on the
Baptist board for three years and everytime the 'secret coming' or
'secret rapture' is mentioned, An anti-pretribber brings it to the board.
You demolish with great ferver a strawman copy of a man who doesn't exist.
BTW, the rapture coming of Jesus at the beginning of the Tribulation period
is LOUD ENOUGH TO WAKE THE DEAD. There are two comings of Christ
in the 70th Week of Daniel, AKA: Day of the Lord - neither one of
them is a 'secret coming'.

DeafPosttrib: //Also, He spoken of the only
one coming at the end of age.//

Show me.
I've shown you 13 differences between the two comings and i don't
reacall you ever disputing a one of them. You chant your montras
all day, but it don't make it so. God is NOT limited to one and only
one general rapture/resurreciton.

BobRyan: //As long as Christians can agree on the basic point that CHRIST
was really raised from the dead then the FIRST RESURRECTION shown
in Rev 20 is in fact the resurrection of the saints
IN THE SAME way Christ was raised -- Coming to life AND THEN
been taken up into heaven - is the very resurrection Paul speaks
of in 1Thess 4 saying that the saints should "Comfort one another
with these words".//

I agree that Christ was raised from the dead.
Christ was not immediately taken to heaven, he resided
on the earth for another 40 days.
Sorry, but Bro. DeafPosttrib believes in the end of the world
when Jesus comes, do you also?
This end of the world at the coming of Christ at the end
of the Tribulation period is NON-scriptural.

Say, Bro. DeafPosttrib thinks we are in the Tribulation time
right now. Does BobRyan?

Tribulation time, if the saints are left behind will have to have
millions tortured to death each day. Say that of the 2,000 Million
nominal Christians on the earth today only i/10 is a real Christian.
THat is 200 Million Chritians. And they all have to be killed before
Jesus comes back (except maybe the 144,000)
Let me see 7 years at 360 days per year is 2520 days. Round
that off at high point (or was it the low point?) of the
Chineese murders of Christians only like 600 a day were
being 'processed'. When 4,000 a day in the US start getting
thier heads lobbed off, that will be real TRIBULATION.
We are not now in the Tribularion period nor has the
world been in the Tribulation period for fthe last 2,000 years.

BobRyan: //Is it any wonder that John points the saints to that SAME resurrection
and calls it "THE FIRST resurrection"?!!//

I can't figure out what you are trying to communicate to me.
So i can't argue with you.
Are you saying that the one and only FIRST resurrection
is JESUS only?
Are you saying that there are multiple resurrections
called the FIRST RESURRECTION (as on my list).
I believe the first resurrection is any group resurrection of
the just. One such resurrrection is going to happen at the beginning
of Daniel's 70theweek, AKA: The Tribulation period.
A second general resurrection will be held at the end of
Daniel's 70th week, after the Tribulation period.


Me4Him: //I like to say, that I know somethings "BEFORE" I can "Prove them".
The spirit teaches "too fast" for me "sometimes".//

Me too. Thank you for reminding me.

I always wonder about those who say thinks like "The road
is so narrow that only 27 people can go to heaven and 8 of
them are in my local church".

On the flip side is the one who says "the devil made me do it".
Well actually there are 6 Billion people on earth and i doubt
the Lead Devil was over at your house. Probably was just
an inept 8th rank imp with an attutude?

Me4Him: //The Jews will attempt to Evangelize the whole world during the trib,
and they will have the "LIGHT" to do the job.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the "MOON" (Jew) shall be as the light
of the "SUN" (JESUS), and the light of the sun shall be "sevenfold",
(Seven Spirits of God) as the light of seven days, in the day (trib)
that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth
the stroke of their wound. //

Amen, Brother Me4Him - preach RIGHT ON!

Me4Him: //"Daniel's Book" was to be "SEALED" until the "TIME OF THE END",
so pretty much like Paul trying to teach the Jews about the
"New Covenant", most reject new revelations.//

Yep, that is right. I note in Daniel 12 that Daniel teaches
one and only one general resurrection. Yet Revelation 20 obviously
teaches at least two general categories of resurrections:
the set of general resurrrections of the just called 'the First Resurrection'
and a set of unnamed general resurrections for the unjust.
But Daniel saw only one generall resurrection.

I don't use all the reasons that some pretribs use to show a pretribulation
rapture. Some pretribs say that the 7-year wedding/rewards ceremony
in heaven is needed to have time for it to happen.

1. Jesus could do it all in under a minute, If He wants to do it that fast.
But i'm hopping part of my reward is to get to 'yea!' for the
rewards that some of my fellow Christians get (Like Me4Him, BobRyan,
and DeafPosttrib).

2. In a physical sense even 7-yers is NOT enough.
Say that 1/8 of the 8000 million dead nominal Christians, that is
1000 million are resurrected. And say that 1/10 of 2,000 Nominal
CHrisians alive now, that is 200 Million are resurrected.
So we are talking an awards ceremony for 1,200,000,000 people.
Consider the 7-years (I use earth time cause that is all i know),
that is 2520 days, that is 60,400 hours, that is 3,628,800 minutes,
that is 217,728,000 seconds. That there are about 218 million seconds
to hand out 1,200 Million awards. That is about six awards each second
for all the 7-years. There isn't enough time to give out awards
in seven years to all the Christians at the Bema Seat of Christ
(AKA: Judgement Seat of Christ). I belive there will be no sin
in heaven to punish, so only rewards will be handed out, not stripes.
I don't buy the pillories of heaven running blood that overflows and
makes the Tribularion seas bloody

BobRyan: // ... as we see in Matt 24
these are words much older than 1952!//

Your statement IMHO seems to imply that what i
learned in 1952 didn't exist before.

Eph 1:4 (KJV1769):
According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

*Jesus chose the members of the universal church
including Ed, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

What i learned in 1952 existed BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
BTW, if you will search your KJV1769 for "before the foundation
of the world" read those three verses and then compare them to the
7 verses that read "from the foundation of the world"
or 'since the foundation of the world' - you will find
the promises to the Jews were made 'from the foundation of
the world' and the promises to the Church were made
before the foundation of the world. I.E. it ain't no church
parentheses - it was God's plan all the time to bless the
Gentiles IN CHRIST.

Ed: //I was taught in 1952 when i was saved ... //
Sorry, i couldn't have been taught any earlier than that.
What were you doing in 1952 that gives you the 'right' to
dispute my testimony?

BobRyan: //3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)//

Strange, i found extra copies of Revelation 20 that a few
preterists had cut out of their Bibles. None of them had
about a millennial kingdom of Christ "in heaven". The
Bible IMHO teaches a physical literal Kingdom of Christ on
a physical earth with Jesus ruling from a physical throne of David
in a physical Jerusalem.

BobRyan, speaking of 2 Thess 2:1-4: //The falling away of vs 1-4
came with the fall of the Christian church
into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church
during the dark ages.

Unfortunately your SDA teachngs skipped by 3/4 of the Dark Ages
church. The Eastern Orthodox and Nestoran (East Syrian) churches
were at times mightier than the RCC - the Coptic (Egyptian) churches
were also active. But due to the limited resources of Ellen White
who got her information from the RCC archives, you and i were taught
nothing of the other 3/4ths of the Church of the Dark Ages.

Another thing, I know, that most don't seem to know, but it is
avialable even through the RCC limited history:
The Vandals tribe was the westernmost of the tribes of Germany.
When the Mongol Hord pushed the Russians west, the Russians pushed
the Hungarians west, and so there was a Domino effect. The
westernmost of the tribes was the Vangals. In about 480
they sacked Rome. The Rome church was the Liberal church of the day,
the Vandals were the IFB of the day The Vandals were
apalled that the Romans still had idols (statues) right out in the
open. So the Vandals destroyed the public idols of Rome.
Even to this day, someone who tares up stuff randomly or without
good sense is called a 'Vandal'.

Anyway, 60% of the Christian martyrs come from the 20th century,
not from the Dark Ages.

Me4Him: //BOB
You are combinding two events, the "rapture" and
Jesus's "PHYSICAL" returning, into "ONE", you can't do that//

Oh yes he can
All he needs do is change slightly Revelation 20:5
from "First Resurrection" to "First and only Resurrection".
I mean, you know, just adding a mere two words to the text.
I mean, you know, like those two words "and" and "only"
are already in the Bible.

Here is 13 differences between two events:

By Edwards:

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come

Click to expand...

IMHO the two events occur at either end of the Tribulation
period.

I note nobody disputed very many of these contentions,
just a few said "NOT" which conveys the person's opinions,
but isn't very convincing to most people. Soon i'll
go through and accept as PROVED all those elements
uncontested

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Me4Him,

Read Matthew 24 is not difficult for you. 12 believers of Christ, asked Christ, what's the signs of the end of age, and His coming. They did not ask for two comings. Two comings unheard to them. Two comings is not teaching find anywhere in the Scripture.

Why cannot you accept the clearing teaching from the Bible saying that Christ shall come again after the tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Click to expand...

You're making a "mistake" Millions make, you're attempting to build your doctrine on "TOO FEW VERSES", that, you can't do.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

The difference in "Leadership" by "GOD" and "JESUS" is very obvious in the scriptures, God used the "L/P" (Law and Prophets) to lead Israel, Jesus uses the "COMFORTER", (Holy Ghost, voice of Jesus) to lead the church.

Jews refuse to accept the leadership of Jesus, Nuff said, they require "Signs and wonders" which Jesus "WON'T GIVE".

The L/P stopped when Jesus's leadership began,

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, (By Jesus, Holy Ghost, Comforter)

And the "Leadership" by the "L/P" "WILL NOT" return until the "LEADERSHIP" of Jesus "STOPS". (rapture)

Now here's the "KEY" to understanding the scriptures,

LEADERSHIP BY BOTH L/P AND COMFORTER "DO NOT" FUNCTION AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE SAME TIME FRAME

Just as the L/P stopped when Jesus came, leadership by "JESUS" (Comforter) will have to stop (rapture) before the "L/P" will return. (trib period)

Most "SAY" they understand the "TRINTIY", but don't realize the trinity is used to explain/interpret the scriptures.

ED

I think "Bob's" uses of the word "resurrection" shows how it can be "confusing" when improperly applied to interpretating prophecy, and I see this all the time.

Where were these people in their "resurrection"??

Lazarus
Little girl
Jesus
OT saints. (Jerusalem)
first resurrection, (returning to earth with Jesus)

"Enoch" left earth in a type of "rapture", and scripture says he was "WAS NOT" on earth, his departure wasn't a "resurrection", and in the rapture, the living also leave, so neither is it classified as a "resurrection".

Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

I know "resurrection" is used to describe the rapture, but understanding if people are back on the earth or not back on the earth, can cause confusion in interpreting prophecy,

As Bob has applied it to mean "BOTH" the rapture (leaving the earth) and "First resurrection". (back on earth)

On page 7 I have a list of 5 Ressurrections that I want to talk about.
There I said: //Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.//

Here are Ed's definitions:
Rapture - the granting of eternal bodies to the living
Resurrection - the coming to life again.

Here are Me4Him's definitions:
Rapture - taking existing life or restoring life and going to heaven
Resurrection - restoring life to stay on earth.

While either set of defintions 'makes sense' trying to have
a discussion with both sets of definitions leads to dificulties.
And chances are the Bible uses at different times each set of definitions.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himselfe shall descend
from heauen with a shout, with the voyce of the Archangel,
and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first.
17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so
shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort one an other with these words.

Remember 'caught up' in the Latan is a form of the word 'rapture'.

By my definitions:
'The dead in Christ shall rise first' is a resurrection,
the 'we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught up together'
is a rapture.

Before the Tribulation, together they make the 'rapture event',
the pretribularion rapture (He4Him's definition).

After the Tribulation,together they make the 'resurrection event',
the post-tribulation resurrection (Me4Him's definition).

To add emphasis to my definitions, when speaking of the pretribulation
event i call it a 'rapture/resurrection'.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
By my definitions:
'The dead in Christ shall rise first' is a resurrection,

Click to expand...

This is the point I want to "focus" on.

The rapture occurs 7 years in advance of the "FIRST RESURRECTION", so really the "First" should be the "SECOND".

You and I know what we're discussing, but to those who are not as familar/knowledge in scripture, this causes them confusion in establishing the correct sequence of events.

Trying to "straighten out a few", is where I came to realize the "precise" definition of "resurrection".

It took me a while to understand "WHERE/WHY" they were getting confused, but once I realized the problem, it was easy to correct.

And that is what I'm seeing here in some of these post, not necessarily the "resurrection", but also mixing the "Day of Christ" (rapture) with the "Day of the Lord", (Physical return)

ALL these event have very "precise" definitions to distinguish between "events", until Folks realize that, they'll stay confused.

Me4Him: //In the "Day of Christ", (pre trib) Jesus comes
as the "BRIDGROOM". (in the air)

//In the "Day of the Lord", (post trib, Matt 24) Jesus comes as "Lord of Lords".
(mount Olives)

//In the "Day of God", (post MK) Jesus comes as "King of Kings"
(God on his Throne, GWT Judgment)//

Amen, Brother Me4Him.
I know of several problems that need to be investigated:

1. 2 Thess. 2:2 has "Day of Christ" in some sources and
'Day of the Lord in other sources.

2. In 2 Peter 3:10 the "Day of the Lord" seems to correspond
with a physical/literal 1,000 year Kingdom of Christ. Yet it
might also refer to the war after the Millinnial Kingdom (MK)
and the 7-year Tribulation Period - in other words, 1009 years
long rounding to 1,000.

So it may be that "Day of the Lord" can mean (by context)
any of your three descriptions.

I'll have to look this over and study it. At my current rate
of study, it will take a few months.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:


I'll have to look this over and study it. At my current rate
of study, it will take a few months.

Click to expand...

"I know what ya mean".

I very "SELDOM" finish my "original investigation", somehow I always get "sidetracked" on to something else, "BUT HAY", I'm still "investigating".


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I find frequent "CROSS-Referrences" between "Jesus" and "GOD", as well as "HOLY GHOST", and "HOLY SPIRIT", I interpret these as a referrence to show them being "ONE AND THE SAME". (trinity)

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, (Voice of Jesus)

1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

[ October 26, 2005, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

Ed said -
1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

Click to expand...

Acts 1 does not say Jesus comes to earth but it IS the focus set for the NT church! This is also true of John 14:3 hence John is anxious to tell us about "THE FIRST RESURRECTION" in the future - that of the holy and righteous ones!

Zech 14 is describing events after the millennium.

Rev 19 shows Christ coming to earth with the armies of heaven (as does 2Thess 1) - but never calls them saints or saints with new bodies.

Rev 19 and 1Thess 4 are the same event.

Rev 20 THE FIRST RESURRECTION (that is the resurrection of the blessed and holy ones) is the same resurrection as seen in 1Thess 4.

It is all pretty strightforward and direct.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan: //It is all pretty strightforward and direct.//

OTOH it is quite common for folks to think
THEIR understanding is "strightforward and direct"
and the understanding of others is complex and
convoluted. So I will agree with you. Your view
is "complex and convoluted" whereas mine is
"strightforward and direct", just like the Bible
intended

In any case - Matt 24 provided a sequence that even you admitted to showing the tribulation BEFORE the appearing of Christ.

Acts 1 really DOES NOT mention Christ stepping on earth at His return -- though you claimed it did.

Rev 19 DOES show Christ coming with His armies in heaven as does 2Thess 2 -- but says nothing about your idea that these are "saints with new bodies coming with Christ".

Do I need to go on to show how "nonintuitive" your approach has been so far?

By contrast the FIRST resurrection for John is the SAME one at the SAME event he has as the focus for the church in John 14:3 "I will COME AGAIN".

The focus for the church is set in Acts 1 and in John 14 as the return of Christ where He raptures the saints and calls forth the righteous in the "FIRST resurrection".

Your view needs "a resurrection BEFORE the FIRST resurrection" that is the real focus of the church.

Such nonintuitive views as you have laid out are hardly "direct and straightforward" by any measure.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by BobRyan:


Rev 19 shows Christ coming to earth with the armies of heaven (as does 2Thess 1) - but never calls them saints or saints with new bodies.

In Christ,

Bob

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1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Did ya miss that verse???

The "FIRST RESURRECTION" is when the church "RETURNS" with Jesus to "END THE TRIB", so evidently, the church must "LEAVE" sometime "PRIOR" to that "RETURNING".

Let's read 2 thess:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

IF the "DAY OF CHRIST" is the same as the "DAY OF THE LORD",....WHY.... would these folks be "TROUBLED"??

Paul "DID NOT" say the "trib was going to occur "FIRST", as it will "BEFORE" the "DAY OF THE LORD" comes,

but Paul described events "PRIOR" to the "DAY OF CHRIST" and our "GATHERING TO HIM" (rapture) and the appearence of the AC sitting in the temple, "CLEARLY", PRE TRIB.

The point in 1 Thess 3:13 is that "you" are established unblamable in holiness with all the saints -- it is NOT that Christ comes at the rapture "With all the saints" since both "WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain" are SAINTS (so Christ could not possibly being coming WITH all the saints) and those who are "the DEAD in Christ are raised first.. and thus shall WE ever be WITH the Lord" -- they too are saints.

In Christ,

Bob

Paul says "That day WILL NOT come unless the falling away happens FIRST." He predicts the antichrist -- man of sin - will come BEFORE that day in 2Thess 2.

These people are "troubled" because there are those false teachers - teaching the false doctrine that the resurrection has already taken place. Their errors were numerous.

2Tim 2
17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"

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In Matt 24 it is very clear that the Tribulation aocurs before the appearing of Christ.

In Rev 19-20 it is very clear that Christ appears BEFORE the "FIRST resurrection".

In Rev 19 - Christ does not step foot on earth.

In Christ,

Bob

2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

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The context is the “Coming of Christ” AND “our gathering together to Him”. Christ said in John 14 “I GO to prepare a place for you”. We have a place in heaven – in His Father’s house. And Christ stated “I will Come AGAIN” and stated the purpose as being “THAT where I am there you may be also”.

2Thess 2
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

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The early church was facing the problem of false letters from Paul. The false teachers were claiming that the dead had already been raised. We see the dead raised with Christ in Matt 27 and this may be what they were referring too – using it to mislead the saints of the NT.

Paul points to the same problem when writing to Timothy –

2Tim 2[/b]
17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"

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Those letters “may have” contained doctrinal error – including the error that the return of Christ had already taken place. “The Day of the Lord” is equated here with the return – or “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

2Thess 2
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

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Paul denies an “immediate rapture” POV – stating that certain “events must come first” including the apostasy “falling away” of the Christian church from truth. The word “anti-christ” is not used here – rather it is “son of destruction”, “man of lawlessness”.


4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The actions of this future “man of lawlessness” is to exalt himself above “so-called-gods” (Those that are not really god) and to seat himself in the temple of god. (Given the context this may be considered as the so-called-temple of god). The real temple of God after the cross is described in Heb 8 and the statement is made that if Christ were on earth “He would NOT be a priest” in the temple on earth (Heb 8:4). A temple without priests to minister- does not “function” and can not be the temple of God.

Christ said that the leaders of the Jews sat “in the seat of Moses” (Matt 23:2) because “Moses took his seat to serve as judge” (Exodus 18:13) – it is assuming a position (of authority in this case) – not a “place” in Israel.

In the same way in - in Psalms 1:1 David commands us not to “sit in the seat of scoffers”

Clearly this enemy is not allowed into Heaven to sit on God’s throne or in the Heb 8:1-4 temple in heaven. And to argue that he is seated in the non-existent temple of God in the Most Holy place where the glory of God is – is to rely more on imagination today than an actual fact in Israel since there is no such temple and God has not placed His glory there since even before the time of Christ.

The earthly sanctuary – in service – marks the period of time when the heavenly sanctuary did not function.
In Heb 10:9 the point is clearly made “He takes away the first to establish the second”. The earthly temple system needed to end. In Heb 9 the point is made again that the way into the heavenly temple is not open while the first temple has a valid, authorized service taking place. This means that the earthly sanctuary service as merely a shadow or prelude to the antitype – the heavenly sanctuary service.

Rev 15:8 shows us that the heavenly sanctuary service continues to function right up until the start of the 7 last plagues as they are sent to fall upon the earth.

Rev 15
:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

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2Thess 2:
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

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This “appearing” is the same appearing we saw in 1Thess 4.

This appearing is simply “of His Coming” – the one He promised in John 14:3 “I will come again”.

Then Paul goes back to the subject of the great antichrist the great man of sin – Satan himself.

2Thess 2
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

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The key at the end is the same today – we must receive a love of the truth so as to be saved. Why is this so important? Why can’t we just love Christ and forget about always having to love the truth and want more of the truth? Because Christ IS “the Way the Truth and the Life” John 14 - and the Spirit of Christ IS the “Spirit of Truth” John 16. The “WORD” became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1) as we see even in Rev 19 at Christ’s appearing He is even then still called “The WORD”. To love Christ is to Love the Word of God as well!

In John 15 Christ says “IF I abide in you and you in me” and then explains that at “MY Word abiding in you and you abiding in My Word”