Is hell eternal?

what in the world is an everlasting cutting off? sounds like CTR was whacked out on some strong drugs when he penned that one.

 

First of all, I said your statement was a lie, not that you are a liar. Simply spreading a lie does not necessarily make you a liar.

Also, I was responding to the overall content of your statement that "no one but JW's translates it as such".

I've never seen one that uses "indefinitely", except the one you posted. But, there are many that translate it as the original Hebrew intent of a limited duration of time. The LXX translates it as "aionion", which is age lasting; Rotherham's Emphasized; Young's (which is based on the TR); the CLV.

There are many, many people who are capapble of distinguishing between a long, but limited time and everlasting (and especially, eternal, which only God is eternal).

Strong's is a concordance, not a lexicon, but even as such, he says that the primary meaning is "long duration".

Why would the Holy Spirit one word that doesn't mean something, when there's another word that does?

 

That's funny! You quoted verses that use two different things in the Greek, one of which actually does mean "everlasting".

Can you not distinguish between the two?

Because of their overwhelming Catholic beliefs, the KJV translators could not.

 

Humor me just for a sec - all languages use different words that mean the same thing. If we look at the words eternal and everlasting in English, the definition is interchangeable. The words everlasting and eternal in Greek are a similar concept.

The point - if I may express my opinion - is that God chose two different words so that we would not miss His intended meaning

 

It seems to me that this discussion is being carried out at too "low" and too unsophisticated a level. There seems to be an implicit belief that "word definitions" drive the solution to the questions. This seems to me to be "bottom-up" approach where perhaps a "top-down" approach is more appropriate.

For example, if there is some statement like "they shall be cast into everlasting fire", everyone pursues finding the defintion of "everlasting" and then "works upwards", allowing the definition to drive the meaning. As I have said before, this approach seems fraught with risk.

While my questions seem to have gone unanswered, I will try again. Suppose that Fred writes a letter to his girlfriend and says: "I will love you forever". 5000 years later, somebody (who does not speak English) unearths this letter and is interested in understanding the intended meaning of this concept of "forever". He consults a dicitionary and, naturally enough, concludes that the primary definition entails the idea that of something never coming to an end. He therefore concludes that Fred believes that he (and the object of his affection) will never taste death.

The problem with this approach is obvious - it ignores the rich and varied ways that words can be used. A more robust approach would be to "work down", allowing context, other known facts about the world and God, and allowance for metaphorical usage to all play a role in the determination of intent.

 

If the Lord wanted to embellish this horrible place He would have done so. If you become the dictionary for us, we are subject to your view of word meanings. God used Greek so that even the details of His Word could be understood.

Plus, it is strange to me that you think Christians live in Heaven for eternity, and yet those who hate the Lord and/or neglect Him get off on 'parole' after a few centuries in the Lake of Fire.

Where in the Bible does it say that the wicked will after awhile be annihilated? And how did you evolve into this unwarranted view?

 

That's debatable. There's no hard fast scriptural rule that parables cannot contain proper names. I do, tough, acknowlege that we cannot know for certain if it's a parable or not. The reason I believe it to be a parable is because it reads and breathes like a parable.

And I went to bible college, and a conservative one at that. I've got the student loan bill to prove it (okay, it's paid off now, but it felt like it took forever).

Anyway, that wasn't really germane to the topic, and I didn't mean to hijack the thread (sorry about that). The topic was the Hell/Sheol difference. Luke 16:19-31 is referring to Hades/Sheol, not Hell. Looks like there's no disagreement in this thread on that point.

 

Long deep technical answer: Yes.

(Would have been a longer even more technical answer but couldn't find the quote I was after)

 

Here are some texts that underlie my "unwarranted" view (sorry for the length, but in the words of Bugs Bunny: "you asked for it"):

A. Wicked shall be ‘destroyed’

Psalm 145:20 “The Lord preserveth all them that love him, but all the wicked He shall destroy”

Psalm 101:8 “I will early destroy all the wicked of the land, that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord”

Psalm 37:38 - “But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off”

Psalm 92:7 “When the wicked spring as the grass and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed forever”

Proverbs 13:13 - “Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed; but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.”

Proverbs 10:29 “The way of the Lord is strength to the upright, but destruction shall be the workers of iniquity.”

Philippians 3:19 “Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things”

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

B. They shall ‘perish’

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away”

Proverbs 19:9 “A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish”

Luke 13:3 “Nay, but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever should believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life”

2 Thessalonians 2:10 “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received no the love of the truth that they might be saved”

C. The wicked shall be’ burnt up’

Matthew 3:12 “Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire”

Matthew 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, ‘Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them. But gather the wheat into my barn”

Hebrews 6:8 “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”

Malachi 4:1,3 “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and th day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works therein shall be burnt up”

D. The wicked will be ‘consumed’

Isaiah 1:28 “And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away”

Psalms 104:35a “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no more”

E. The wicked will be ‘devoured’

Psalm 21:9 “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.”

Revelation 20:9 “And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

Hebrews 10:27 “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigination, which shall devour the adversaries”

F. The wicked shall be ‘cut off from the earth’

Psalm 37:2,9,22,28,34,38 “For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb...For evildoers shall be cut off, but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth...For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off...For the Lord loveth judgment and forsaketh not his saints; the are preserved for ever. But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off...Wait on the Lord and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it...But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off”

Isaiah 33:12 “And the people shall be as the burnings of lime. As thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire”

Proverbs 2:22 “But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it”

G. The wicked will go into 'perdition' or 'utter ruin'

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul”

2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and periditon of ungodly men”

H. The wicked are compared to combustible materials

Matthew 3:12. "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaffwith unquenchable fire."

Nahum 1:9-10 "What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Matthew 13:40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

John 15:6. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

 

The word "owlam" in Hebrew does not mean eternal, nor does it mean everlasting. Eternal means without beginning or ending (only God is eternal) and everlasting means without ending. "Owlam" is a time of limited duration, which is supported by the use of the Greek word "aionion" in the LXX. Sadly, both have been translated as "eternal" (among other things), which creates much confusion. </font>[/QUOTE]If it is translated by AIONION there, my opinion is that this argues for it meaning "eternal" (Or "everlasting")

BGAD (Bauer, Gingrich & Danker) says that AIWNION can mean either (going from memory here)

1 - no beginning
2 - no end
3 - no beginning or end.

BGAD does not even allow for the possibility of AIWNION meaning some age of temporal duration.

It is handy to call "eternal" in English as having no beginning or end, though it is often used to mean just no end. Look at the 67 or so times it's used in the NT. Most consider it to always mean eternal. And BGAD is probably the foremost lexicon used bny professionals.

OTOH, if there is a lexicon which rivals it, used by professionals, it is Liddell & Scott. L & S says that AIWNION can relate to a long age. So personally I refuse to be adament either way. I think we must admit that both may be correct. We just don't know for sure.

One thing we must be careful of is lumping this term (AIWNION) with AIWN. AIWN (in singular) usually does mean "age." But AIWNION is simply a different term, not meaning "age," in general. Also, plural uses of AIWN or complex forms such as EIS TOUS AIWNAS TWN AIWNWN - somthing like "into the ages of the ages." It is generally recognized as referring to eternity.

But the question becomes would still have to be asked, even if it is acknowledged that AIWNION/AIWNIOS and EIS TOUS AIWNAS TWN AIWNWN (used 19 times in the NT - I checked them all out - 2 regarding "eternal"punishment) do refer to eternity, if an extremely long age was involved if our Lord wouldn't just use a term which refers to eternity anyway.

So I just don't think we can definitely answer the question one way or another based on those terms. Dr. William Lane Craig, the foremost apologist in the world today, has published some books and you can find articles by him on the Inet about this - he takes the position that it is not illogical for God to condemn those who do not trust in Christ to eternal damnation. I think if you just do some googles you'll find them.

Oh, another big name which supports AIWNIOS as not necessarily referring to eternity (though it certainly may) is

Moulton and Milligan, The Vocabulary of the Greek NT. Concerning AIWNIOS they say,

So I do think we have to be careful about being too strong on either side. AIWNIOS/AIWNION is used to refer to something eternal, such as the life we gain when we trust in Christ. But it need not only be used to refer to something without end.

The argument may well be made, though, that if the condemnation of the unbelieving is not eternal, then where's the promise that the lives of the believers is eternal? Especially in texts where both are there and contrasted.

FA

 

Andre,

Takingthe devil's advocate position... Why need fire indicate annihilation? It is used quite often in scripture, esp. in the NT, to refer to punishment or discipline... to a purification rocess. URs take this position...

Matthew 3:12 “Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire”

That purifies the grain, right? Sure, the chaff is "destroyed," andthe wicked are the chaff. But the overall process is a description of purification, it may be argued.

Matthew 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, ‘Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them. But gather the wheat into my barn”

Again - purification, it could be argued. Although certainly the chaff is destroyed. But it might be argued that thechaff doesn't represent the individuals themselves, but their deeds and sins. (I think it would have to be argued thisway.)

Hebrews 6:8 “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”

This text refers to the discvipline process of ourLord with believers, and not any kind of condemnation. Think about it... is the ground destroyed? No, just the thorns and thistles. The purpose os to make the field ready for a new crop.

Malachi 4:1,3 “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

It could be argued that it is the works and sinswhich are destroyed, but that it doesn't make sense that it would take eternity to account for all of a person's sins, since we have finite lives.

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works therein shall be burnt up”

This is referring to the earth - not the people on it.


I would think an argument something like I did a poor job of above would be used. I do think that those who hold to eternal damnation/separation from God need to explain why it takes eternity since the sins are not infinite in number for all of mankind.

Thoughts?

FA

 

For those interested in pursueing the Greek, here's some distinctions to keep in mind:

AIWN in singular form - it may and often, in fact usually, does refer to an "age" of time.

AIWN in plural form must be handled differently - can't just combine it with AIWN in singular when studying AIWN. AIWN is used about 200 timess (S and Pl) total in the NT, and the LXX (Greek septuagint) should also be studied - a big task!

Phrases, such as EIS TOUS AIWNAS TWN AIWNWN - complex plural forms - are much more likely to generally be referencing eternity. I was taught that this was how eternity was expressed in Greek. I'll post a list of all 19 of those expressions soon for those who want to research it. In the Greek septuagint AIWN is found in several complex forms.

AIWNIOS/AIUWNION - Most lexicons say it always refers to eternity, but one significant one (L & S) differs, as does a significant vocabulary aid (Moulton-Milligan). First-of-all, this is not the same word as AIWN. They must be distinguished.

There is no single word in Greek intended to mean "eternity" if not AIWNIOS. (Which I believe to be just that.) So Paul and others had to use more complex expressions to communicate the idea.

We must not also ignore the fact that the Jews at the time of Christ (and before) were definitely looking for a golden age - the millenium/kingdom of the Messiah. It was to be an age... not lasting forever necessarily. Revelation shows it to be 1000 years in length. I take this to mean literally 1000 years. There was also apparently an earth before ours was re-created and inhabited (created) as described in Genesis 1. That time before the earth we know of now could be considered an age, so ages were part of the Jewish mindset.

FA

 

Revelation 20:10-15 The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The italicized portion above is:
EIS TOUS AIWNAS TWS AIWNWN - "into the ages of the ages," or something like that.


EIS TOUS AIWNAS TWS AIWNWN:
Galatians 1:3-5 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
(The Father will receive glory throughout eternity, right?)

Philippians 4:20 Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.
(The Father will be glorified through eternity, right?)

1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
(This is a great verse on the deity of Christ, BTW. IMO it is referring to the Son, not the Father. But regardless it says that He will receive honor and glory forever... will that ever end?)

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil work and will bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever! Amen.
(Glory to God will never end, right?)

Hebrews 1:8 but about the Son: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.
(Now here it uses this expression to refer to the reign of Christ - which is intended IMO to be infinite. But some argue that since Christ will turn over His reign of the kingdom to His Father that this is again referring to a finite period of time.)

Hebrews 13:21 ...equip you with all that is good to do His will, working in us what is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
(OK, certainly there can be no doubt that Jesus deserves to be glorified, and will be glorified, forever and ever - infinitely, right?)

1 Peter 4:11 If anyone speaks, his speech should be like the oracles of God; if anyone serves, his service should be from the strength God provides, so that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To Him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.
(OK, again there can be no doubt that Jesus deserves to be glorified, and will be glorified, forever and ever and is omnipotently - infinitely, right?)

1 Peter 5:10, 11 Now the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will personally restore, establish, strengthen, and support you after you have suffered a little. To Him [referrant is "the God of all grace"] be the dominion forever. Amen.
(To the God of all grace... be the dominion "forever" - must be for eternity.)

Revelation 1:5b, 6 To Him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by His blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(Now here again it uses this expression to refer to the reign of Christ AND glory - which is intended IMO to be infinite. But some argue that since Christ will turn over His reign of the kingdom to His Father that this is again referring to a finite period of time. However, His glory will be forever.)

Revelation 1:17b, 18 "Don't be afraid! I am the First and the Last, and the Living One. I was dead, but look--I am alive forever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and Hades."
(OK, Jesus is alive "forever" - I take it to mean literally for eternity.)

Revelation 4:9, 10 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One seated on the throne, the One who lives forever and ever, the 24 elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, worship the One who lives forever and ever, cast their crowns before the throne, and say...
(OK, the One seated on the throne is probably the Father. But regardless, God certainly lives "forever," right?)

Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them say: Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to the One seated on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!
(OK, dominion may be, some argue, only until He gives over the reign to His Father. But certainly blessing and honor and glory will be given forever to the Father!)

Revelation 7:11, 12 All the angels stood around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.
(Again "blessing and honor and glory and wisdom..." will be God's throughout eternity, right?)

Revelation 10:6 He swore an oath by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: "There will no longer be an interval of time."
(God lives throughout eternity, right?)

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Messiah, and He will reign forever and ever!
(Here the Lord clearly refers to the Father, Who will reign through eternity.)

Revelation 15:7 One of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven gold bowls filled with the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
(Here God will reign through eternity, right?)

Revelation 19:2, 3 ...because His judgments are true and righteous, because He has judged the notorious prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality; and He has avenged the blood of His servants that was on her hands. A second time they said: Hallelujah! Her smoke ascends forever and ever
(Here we see that the "prostitute" is referring probably to the False Prophet, saying that the smoke of her judgment will ascend forever. Will she eventually be "cleansed" and released?)

Revelation 20:10 - (our text above - "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" - eternal judgment)

Revelation 22:5 Night will no longer exist, and people will not need lamplight or sunlight, because the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign forever and ever.
(If this does not refer to eternity, then it means that the reign of believers will be only for a time.)


OK, AIWN is used over 200 times in the NT, and AIWNIOS/AIWNION is used some 69 times - the above is just the usage of just that complex phrase, EIS TOUS AIWNAS TWS AIWNWN - 19 times. But this complex phrase is used twice to refer to the punishment of unbelievers, so it needs to be considered. "Into the ages of the ages." It's a much stronger expression than just AIWN. I do not dispute that AIWN can and often does refer to an age of temporal length.

The 2 places it refers to judgment are Revelation 19:3 and 20:10. Plural AIWN is often used in the NT to refer to eternity. But it's too complex to go into it all.

I know it gets confusing, but AIWN and AIWNIOS/AIWNION are different words. Also AIWNAS is plural of AIWN, not a parced form of AIWNIOS. When one studies AIWN, he needs to consider plural forms of AIWN, which are stronger than the singular form... One thing is clear. If anyone says (I've read such on both sides) that AIWN or AIWNIOS always means such-n-such... they're simplifying it, and I'd question their conclusions.

FA