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Roman Catholicism , cult or not?
- Thread starter shannonL
- Start date
Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
You have condemned yourself by your own words.
By your own words your experience with the Catholic Church is not normative. "I rarely go to mass," you aaid.
And yet you said that it was my experience that was not normative. Let me ask you:
Why do you assume that I spent my life in just one Catholic Church?
Why do you assume that you know all about my personal life?
Where do you get such supernatural knowledge?
Are you God? Are you claiming omniscience that you know all about my past life? Where do you get this information that you assume? You do greatly err!!
My life is not normative? I suppose not, and that gives me an advantage over you.
I have lived in four provinces in Canada (including Qluebec--one of the most Catholic "staes" in the world), and overseas, living also for four years overseas, visiting a half dozen nations while I was there. I traveled half way around the world before I reached the age of fourteen. Please don't tell me that my experiences as a Catholic were confined to one local church. Every Catholic Church I have been in omitted the same--the gospel. The gospel has never been preached in any Catholic Church that I have ever been in. In 20 years I am sure that they had plenty of opportunity, but it is not there. They preach a message of good works, getting to heaven by doing good. If you commit a mortal sin you are damned to Hell. That is all part of the good works salvation. It is not salvation by grace through faith.
Some advice for you: Don't try and play God.
You will be. And if you are not saved by faith and faith alone you will be condemned to hell. The truth is that simple. The Catholic Church does not preach that simple truth.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
DHK
The witness of 32,000 Protestant denominations is enough to convict Sola Scriptura of lacking any ability to lead people "into all truth" John 16. </font>[/QUOTE]That is an over-used assumption of 32,000 "Protestant denominations." Would you care to list them for me. I want you to be accurate in your facts before you post them.
DHK
The witness of 32,000 Protestant denominations is enough to convict Sola Scriptura of lacking any ability to lead people "into all truth" John 16. </font>[/QUOTE]That is an over-used assumption of 32,000 "Protestant denominations." Would you care to list them for me. I want you to be accurate in your facts before you post them.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]
So you can attack the number, but that does nothing to help the fact that the Protestant church is incredibly divided into hundreds if not thousands of groups and splinter groups. Protestantism proves the falsity of sola scriptura or one can achieve doctrinal truths from the bible alone. If this were so, Protestantism would not be so horribly divided, but harmony of doctrinal beliefs would be more clearly seen.
This is why we have “church hoppers”; many Protestants are lost in the sea of Protestantism, including myself. Protestants have no scriptural authority for how they interpret scripture. Each group is their own Pope or authority for interpreting scripture their way.
Is the body of Christ supposed to be divided into 30,000 or more ways of understanding doctrine? Or is there one body and one faith?
I don't arrogantly condemn anyone. I qoute what the Bible says. I greive for my own family--my parents who are devout Catholics and on the road to Hell because they shun the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The Catholics have redefined basic definitions of theological terminology of the New Testament to make it fit in their theological framework of salvation of works. But the Bible clearly says:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grace is the undeserved free merit of God. You cannot work for the grace of God. Paul states this in Romans 11:6
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--If there are any works involved in salvation (including baptism) then the salvation is null and void, for one is trusting in works. Grace is grace alone or it is not grace at all. It excludes all works--baptism, church membership, confirmation, keeping the Ten Commandments, etc. There is absolutely no works involved in grace. When Christ said in John 19:30 "It is finished," he meant that the "work" of salvation is finished. There is nothing that man can do. He completed, finished, it all. It was done, completed. Out sins were atoned for right then and there. Baptism would mean nothing. Our sins, by the grace of God, were atoned for on the cross by Jesus Christ, by the shedding of his blood. It is by grace alone that one is saved. Grace with works is not grace.
Salvation is through faith. It is not through faith plus works, or through faith plus baptism, it is through faith alone. That is the meaning of the verse. To accept the grace of God (without works) you must accept it by faith alone (without works). This is evident by the rest of the verse also.
It is the gift of God. A gift is something to be received without working for it. If you work for it is not a gift. Paul defines this in Romans 4
Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Now to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Salvation comes through faith, without works. It is a gift of God. Romans 6:23 says: "The gift of God is eternal through Jesus Christ our Lord." A gift cannot be worked for, only received freely.
And then the verse says very plainly not by works How can one deny this? It is not by works. Not by any works--works of the law, works of keeping the Ten Commandments, works of the New Testamens, works of Jesus Christ, works of any kind. Salvation is not of any kind for the simple reason that it would negate the definitions of "gift" "faith" and "grace." You would have to redefine all of these terms if you were to limit works just to the works of the law. This view is impossible in the context of this passage. It is exactly what it says: not of works. Believe what it says. Don't rationalize it away to any specific kind of works, for it doesn't say the works of the law. It doesn't specify such and indeed cannot.
This is one passage of Scripture the Catholics do not beiieve, do not accept, do not preach.
And yet it contains the most important message in the Bible.
DHK
The witness of 32,000 Protestant denominations is enough to convict Sola Scriptura of lacking any ability to lead people "into all truth" John 16. </font>[/QUOTE]That is an over-used assumption of 32,000 "Protestant denominations." Would you care to list them for me. I want you to be accurate in your facts before you post them.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]
So you can attack the number,</font>[/QUOTE]Yes I attack the number.
Frist you say 32,000. Then you come down to 30,000. Now you concede that you have seen 8. 8 is a bit different than 30,000, wouldn't you think?
Tell me where you get 30-32,000 Protestant denominations. I want to know. If you don't know where this figure comes from refrain from posting it. Verify your sources.
DHK
Per your interpretation of scripture you do arrogantly condemn people to Hell. Who gave you the authority to judge and damn someone to Hell?
Was it the Catholics that “redefined the basic definitions of theological terminology of the New Testament” or was it the Reformers?
Clearly? So which one of the thousands of Protestant Denomination has it right, DHK?
The Dictionary of Christianity in America and the World Christian Encyclopedia, which can be found in your local community library. </font>[/QUOTE]Have you gone there and looked it up for yourself?
Obviously not. All that you have done is taken some Catholic apologists statement and plagiarized it for yourself--despicable!!
I asked you to verify your sources before posting them. That is the honorable thing to do. Are you so lazy that you resort to hearsay or guesswork? Is that the best you can do? Is that the standard you set for yourself as a Christian?
Your #8 for Protestant denominations is actually the closest.
Take a look at:
Protestant Denominations
There aren't many Protestant Denominatons. About eight major ones. Others are simply off-shoots of the major denominations.
Your 30,000 comes from somebody's wild imagination who is trying to discredit the theory of "sola scriptura." It is Catholic revisionsim at its best. You ought not to be posting hearsay.
DHK
Wow, DHK is sure in a judging mood this afternoon, first he damns his own parents to Hell for being Catholic, then he judges my Christian Character. How do you know that I don’t own the books I listed DHK or are you guessing or interpreting my post to suggest that I got the info from a Catholic source? Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t, maybe I own the books, got them from a second hand store while taking a religious study class. Or maybe you should just hold your tongue and start practicing what Christ taught…
Your 8 major Protestant denominations are enough to debunk sola scriptura…lol
Awwww…so I can’t count the thousands of “off-shoots”…I’d wager that including the off-shoots that crop-up weekly, we’d be pushing a number even greater than 30,000…sola scriptura!!!!
Did you seriously take a look at the web-site that I posted. There is no way that you can get thousands of denominations. If there is start listing. I want to see your evidence. Don't make claims that you can't verify. If you have the books that you claim you have then you can make a quote from them, quoting the page number, the name of the book, the publisher, the year printed, and so on. Why should the people on this board be subject to your hearsay? Act like a Christian. Verify your statements.
DHK
Rivern,
FYI, This "Encyclopedia" site claims 161 Protestant demoninations (according to my fallible count). But there are many that are not Protestant, many that over lap each other, and many cults (such as Mormons) which shouldn't be there. Cults have never been included as Protestant denominations. German Catholics are still Catholics and are not Protestant in any sense of the word, and yet are included in that list. German Baptist are still Baptist and don't need to be repeated. Thus there are far less than the 160 or so that are listed.
Here is the link:
Encyclopedia
FYI, This "Encyclopedia" site claims 161 Protestant demoninations (according to my fallible count). But there are many that are not Protestant, many that over lap each other, and many cults (such as Mormons) which shouldn't be there. Cults have never been included as Protestant denominations. German Catholics are still Catholics and are not Protestant in any sense of the word, and yet are included in that list. German Baptist are still Baptist and don't need to be repeated. Thus there are far less than the 160 or so that are listed.
Here is the link:
Encyclopedia
riverm,
Regarding the protestant denominations, you said...
(you have been listening to Catholics waaaay too much)
riverm...there was only one body of Christ 2000 years ago, there is only one body of Christ today, and all there has ever been or ever will be is one body of Christ.
That one body is all who are born of the Spirit.
Period.
The organisation someone is a part of is 100% irrelavent regarding who has saved them...Christ...and whos body they are a part of...Christs.
God bless,
Mike
Regarding the protestant denominations, you said...
Where in the world do you get this bizarre idea that the body of Christ is divided?
(you have been listening to Catholics waaaay too much)
riverm...there was only one body of Christ 2000 years ago, there is only one body of Christ today, and all there has ever been or ever will be is one body of Christ.
That one body is all who are born of the Spirit.
Period.
The organisation someone is a part of is 100% irrelavent regarding who has saved them...Christ...and whos body they are a part of...Christs.
God bless,
Mike
Oh my. There is that crazy looney toons figure again.
One would think that after having it proved to be ridiculously false so may times people would drop it.
But I guess not.
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Incredible isn't it Mike? After two websites which give information that thoroughly debunks his information, Rivern will not retract his statement, neither will he give evidence to the veracity of it. Some people are just stuck in the lies of their false false religions. Perhaps it is called pride.
DHK
DHK,
Well, 1st it was 32,000. Then it was dropped down to 30,000. I think his most recent one was the vague figure of (("thousands")).
Its just amazing. Its like people dont bother to engage their mind and think!
A smiling priest on EWTN coyly says "Why, all of those 32,000 protestant denominations...", and they just buy it "hook line and sinker".
(and believe it or not, I've heard priests propagate that nonsense)
Anything to "toe the company line" I guess.
After all, if a priest says it, it must be true.
Blessings,
Mike
Well, 1st it was 32,000. Then it was dropped down to 30,000. I think his most recent one was the vague figure of (("thousands")).
Its just amazing. Its like people dont bother to engage their mind and think!
A smiling priest on EWTN coyly says "Why, all of those 32,000 protestant denominations...", and they just buy it "hook line and sinker".
(and believe it or not, I've heard priests propagate that nonsense)
Anything to "toe the company line" I guess.
After all, if a priest says it, it must be true.
Blessings,
Mike
If you do own the books as your seem to be implying, then post the reference data (e.g. Author, title, publisher, date, and page numbers). There is no need to respond with maybe-isms, innuendo, or to beat around the bush in the manner that you have done in the above quote. Just provide your source references so that they may be verified by your follow BB posters.
This is over simplified logic and wrong-headed thinking. Sola Scriptura means "only Scripture." Meaning we have no higher authority than the Bible. Thus, the Bible is the final arbiter of truth and the final authority in all Theological and Spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura speaks nothing in regard to religious denominations. You are speaking (or rather typing) nonsense.
Mike, just a couple of points this time, otherwise we'll get confused as to who's been quoting what!
The Catholics little word games fool nobody...including God.
Nobody is fooled. God is not fooled.</font>[/QUOTE]Look at the words: "differs essentially". That means that hyperdulia is - or ought to be - fundamentally different in character to the latria given only to the Godhead. Unfortunately many Catholics are not so much fooled but confused as to the difference and the two are often conflated in practice - but that of course would be against the teaching of the CC. So it is not just hair-splitting on semantics - there really is a difference in essence - as the Catechism makes clear; it's just a shame that it is not followed properly in practice so much...
Me:
1. Do we both agree that, following James, faith produces good works?
2. And that good works prior to or without faith are null and void in God's eyes - there is no soteriological merit to them?
3. But that good works after and as a result of faith do have soteriological merit, following James, as a fruit of that faith?
4. And that without those post-faith works, that saving faith is non-existent, again following James ("dead")?
Again, the Catholic Church's silly little word games go in one ear, and out the other for everyone except those seeking to justify their goddess worship.
The Catholics little word games fool nobody...including God.
Nonsense. Meaningless gobbledegoop. Utter ridiculousness.
Nobody is fooled. God is not fooled.</font>[/QUOTE]Look at the words: "differs essentially". That means that hyperdulia is - or ought to be - fundamentally different in character to the latria given only to the Godhead. Unfortunately many Catholics are not so much fooled but confused as to the difference and the two are often conflated in practice - but that of course would be against the teaching of the CC. So it is not just hair-splitting on semantics - there really is a difference in essence - as the Catechism makes clear; it's just a shame that it is not followed properly in practice so much...
Me:
You:
My reply to this:
You:
Ok, perhaps, just perhaps, we can approach some degree of convergence here:
1. Do we both agree that, following James, faith produces good works?
2. And that good works prior to or without faith are null and void in God's eyes - there is no soteriological merit to them?
3. But that good works after and as a result of faith do have soteriological merit, following James, as a fruit of that faith?
4. And that without those post-faith works, that saving faith is non-existent, again following James ("dead")?
Clearly? So which one of the thousands of Protestant Denomination has it right, DHK? </font>[/QUOTE]This is worth repeating, even if we are talking only about 8 denominations: which has the correct interpretation, DHK?