Originally posted by D28guy:
Matt Black,
None of these postings of yours were directed to me, but since I'm a big mouth I cant resist. 
Ditto!
Dont feel in the least compelled to respond unless you want to.
Regarding a charge of worshipping Mary, you said...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Nope. The word you're looking for is hyperdulia. If RCs were offering latria to a statue of Mary, that would indeed be latria and idolatrous."
More little Catholic word games.
In one ear...out the other. They dont fool us and they dont fool God.
"Doubtless there are some who do that,...
SOME??? How about millions!
"...but they are in ignorance and opposition to the teachings of the RCC and therefore not good Catholics."
They are doing precisely as the Catholic Church is teaching them to do.
Offering goddess worship up to Mary.</font>[/QUOTE]This is not what the Catholic Church compels them to do. 'Worship' would be 'latria' and that, acc to Catholic doctrine, is reserved only to God. For a Catholic to offer worship to Mary would indeed be idolatrous, as the Catechism makes clear:-
The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.
- from para 971.
(from a following post)
DHK posted this...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Instead of trying to explain it on a philosophical level, I will let the Scripture explain it. If you believe not the Scriptures, then your argument is with God, not with me.
1. The Scriptures explicitly say that salvation is not of works.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It is by grace through faith. And if it is by faith; it is by faith alone. The Scripture does not indicate any other agent here does it? It clearly says through faith...the gift of God...not of works
2. Salvation is also by grace, and grace alone. The definition of grace is the free unmerited favor of God. Concerning salvation Christ came down and freely provided salvation by dying on the cross for us. He (by himself) paid the full penalty of our sins. There is no way that we can play any role in that salvation through means of baptism or purgatory or any other such rite. He paid the full penalty. It was all through grace.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Grace eliminates works. Faith is not a work. But "sacraments" are works. Sacraments play no role in salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith.
3. There is only one requirement for salvation: to have faith, that is to believe on the sacrificial work of Christ by inviting Jesus Christ to be your Saviour. Notice I didn't say sinner's prayer. Not one individual on this board (in this thread) has used that term but you. So, you have implicitly have made some false accusations. Notice what Paul said to the Philippian jailor when he asked about salvation.
Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,
--Belief (faith) is the only requirement.
4. What did Jesus say about faith?
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--The natural mind thinks they have to DO something to get to heaven: be baptized, be a member of a church, get confirmed, keep the Ten Commandments, be good, do works, do, do, do, do, etc.
Jesus answered there is no doing. There are no works. Faith is not a work. He answered sarcastically. If you must call it a work; the only "work" that you can do is believe on him who sent him. The only requirement for salvation is faith (belief).
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Faith is not a work. If you still believe that it is, then your argument is with God, not with me."
And you said...
"Oh, goody, a proof-texting session!..."
Only a Catholic apologist...a denomination who teaches as truth the traditions of men, while diminishing the word of God...can have such a flippant reponse to the truth of the scriptures.</font>[/QUOTE]Not flippant to the Scriptures, just to those who pick and choose texts out of context. Remember that the Devil himself can prooftext - not that I'm accusing DHK of being Beelzebub(!) but it's not a very good example to seek to emulate. (Of course, you can always accuse me of doing the same
) - but that is of course another overarching weakness of sola Scriptura
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Let me first comment on one or two of those which you quoted, namely the Pauline quotes. I think one would need to show that Paul was talking about 'works' generally, rather than works of the Law."
He was talking about any works. </font>[/QUOTE]Then you disagree with most commentators on Eph 2:4-9; it is widely accepted that, given the addressees of this particular Epistle, Paul was talking about trying to fulfil the Law.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"In addition, your quote from John 6:28-29 makes it crystal clear that belief is a work!"
Not in the least. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not quite sure how you reach that conclusion; to me, it's "work...believe". See James 2 again for further examples: 21-23.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Now, some more to add to your pile:
Matt 25:31-46 - no mention of faith whatsoever in the parable of the sheep and the goats - it's all about actions. Perhaps Jesus got it wrong, then? I would suggest your argument is with Him, not me.
Who is Christ speaking to here, Matt? Those alive on earth after His 2nd coming. This has nothing to do with the gospel as it is being presented here on earth prior to that time.
When Christ returns again we who have been saved by the gospel during this dispensation, come back with Him.
(I am not using the word "dispensation" as a hard core dispensationalist...although I lean that way. Only to mean a specific period of time)</font>[/QUOTE]Ok, we've had the cessationist view from DHK, now we have the dispensationalist view from you; suffice it to say that I don't buy into either of those theologies and I would find myself having to perform some intellectual and theological gymnastics were I to attempt to do so. IMO this is talking about the last judgement. Certainly hard to get sola fides from this passage. Seems pretty clear that what matters at the final judgment is how you treated other people, not whether you called Jesus "Lord". The sheep and the goats parable is a natural (or supernatural) consequence of the Golden Rule, a natural follow up to the story of the rich young ruler. It may be significant that it is only in Matthew's gospel.
In the wider context of how it stacks up with, say, Pauline salvation understanding, the James letter is one of the keys. It seems clear that there was thought to be an inevitable connection between salvation and good works. An awakened love of God, if genuine, was bound to lead to an awakened love of neighbour, expressed in the terms the rich young ruler found so hard to bear. This seems to me to be a right way of looking at these things.
The most arresting quote about the parable that I have come across in recent years is this one.
By James Forbes, Pastor Riverside Church NY, at the end of a sermon on the parable
"Nobody gets to heaven without a letter of reference from the poor"
(Quoted in "God's Politics" - by Jim Wallis)
If salvation is understood as a sort of insurance policy based on making the right theological statement, then that quote should give pause for thought. On questions like this and others, I have always liked William Law's observation that "If you seek articles (meaning a contract) how you shall serve God, you will find you have signed both copies yourself".
Chapter 25 is an interesting chapter - three parables about who is 'in' and 'out'.
Ten bridesmaids: 10 heard about the wedding but their preparations are tested when the bridegroom suddenly arrives.
Three servants: 3 servants are given responsibility by a master who leaves to return at an undetermined time in the future. He comes back unexpectedly and judges the performance.
Then the Sheep and Goats.
ISTM that these are all interlinked and are all descriptions of the Christian life. In the first, the bridesmaids have presumably been invited and told to expect the groom. In the second, the servants are thought worthy of the responsibility given by the master.
A bridesmaid who did not know about the forthcoming wedding would not have been prepared. A servant who was not asked to invest money would not have expected to be asked for a return. These are clearly about Christians IMO.
I accept that the language in the third is different, but I'm arguing that it is an extension of the other two parables.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved. But you say that baptism is a work...so again, Jesus gets it wrong, apparently."
There are more than one type of baptism, Matt.
"I indeed baptize with water. There is one coming who is mightier then I. He will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire"
When one recieves Christ through faith alone they are Spirit bapised into the body Christ instantly at that moment.</font>[/QUOTE]Except that:-
1. The text makes no mention of Spirit baptism; usually when Jesus talks about Spirit baptism, He makes that clear eg: John 3:5 -"water and the Spirit" - you have both types here
2. This is the Marcan record of the Great Commission; if you want to Spiritualise the Baptism, you have also to do the same with the Matthean version in Matt 28:19. The disciples would not have understood this as anything other than water baptism - and neither should we.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"John 6:32-59 Right after your Johannine quote where Jesus is asked about the works of God, He launches into the Bread of Life discourse where, inter alia, He says "Unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you can have no part of Me." Sounds pretty 'worky' to me but,..."
I know it does, since you believe that the Catholic lies regarding the Lords supper memorial are true. My goodness how they butcher and mangle Gods scriptures.</font>[/QUOTE]Not just Catholic 'lies', but also Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodox, Methodist, Presbyterian, early Baptist, in fact practically just about all Christians until about 150 years ago. So they're all liars. Good, glad we cleared that one up...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"...then again, it is Jesus again and you seem to have something of a problem with His words so far.
We have no problem with the words of Christ at all.
"Do this in remembrance of me"</font>[/QUOTE]Neither do I. You do however have a problem with His words "This is My Body, this is My Blood"
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"You quote from Acts 16, but you conveniently ignore Acts 2:38-39: in response to "what must we do to be saved, it is " Repent (action), be baptised (action) and you will receive the Holy Spirit". So, you also part company with Peter there."
When Peter himself was speaking about Nicodemus and his family...who had just entered into a faith alone relationship with the resurrected Lord...he said:
"Who can forbid water, that these should not be baptised, seeing as they have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
How can anyone miss something so clear?</font>[/QUOTE]Apart apparently from the fact that it was Cornelius, not Nicodemus...but do go on...
They were, clearly, born again through faith alone. (Spirit baptism).
Then they were water baptised. (Water baptism, symbolic.)
No, not symbolic, but part of the same conversion process (per John 3:5 and Acts 2:38-39; it is perfectly in agreement with those two Scriptures - there's a shock: Scripture agrees with itself!)
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"And finally, the top-hat on it all: James 2:14-26, where it says, quite plainly, in whatever language you choose to read it, that "a man is not saved by faith alone" but by faith plus works"
And it is so easilly expained.
James was speaking about what will be the result of saving faith in Christ.
A changed life.
And this fits perfectly with Ephesians...
</font>[/QUOTE]And it also fits perfectly with the soteriology of the Catholic Church...
