Roman Catholicism , cult or not?

DHK · Mar 2, 2006

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

D28guy · Mar 2, 2006

FriendofSpurgeon,

"I thought a Christian was saved by God's grace alone."
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We are. By grace alone through faith alone.

DHK posted...

"Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"
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And I'll add from Ephesians...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."

And going back to Romans...

"even the rightiousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

For there is no difference, for all have sinned and come short of of the glory of God. Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus....to demonstrate at the present time His rightiousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

God feels so strongly about this that in Galaciens He place the curse of Almighty God Himself upon any gospel that adds works to justification through faith alone.

This is a very serious matter.

God bless,

Mike

Matt Black · Mar 2, 2006

No mental gymnastics required, Mike . I'll just let the facts speak for themselves:-

1. The anathemata of Trent still stand. They have never been revoked.

2. However, they need to be read in the context of what the 16th century Catholic Church believed Lutheranism to be saying and what they now acknowledge Lutherans actually believe. That context is laid out in the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification issued by the CC and the Lutherans. Since no-one seems to have bothered to read the link. I'll quote the salient points, with some parts italicised by me for emphasis:-

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

...19.We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God's judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities.Justification takes place solely by God's grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:

20.When Catholics say that persons "cooperate" in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God's justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.

21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God and his saving action. Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace. When they emphasize that a person can only receive (mere passive) justification, they mean thereby to exclude any possibility of contributing to one's own justification, but do not deny that believers are fully involved personally in their faith, which is effected by God's Word. [cf. Sources for 4.1].

22.We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin's enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God's gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say that:

23.When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one's life renewed. When they stress that God's grace is forgiving love ("the favor of God"[12]), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian's life. They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.

24.When Catholics emphasize the renewal of the interior person through the reception of grace imparted as a gift to the believer,[13] they wish to insist that God's forgiving grace always brings with it a gift of new life, which in the Holy Spirit becomes effective in active love. They do not thereby deny that God's gift of grace in justification remains independent of human cooperation. [cf. Sources for section 4.2].

25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God's gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

...27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place....

31.We confess together that persons are justified by faith in the gospel "apart from works prescribed by the law" (Rom 3:28). Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation. We also confess that God's commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God's will which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also.

32.Lutherans state that the distinction and right ordering of law and gospel is essential for the understanding of justification. In its theological use, the law is demand and accusation. Throughout their lives, all persons, Christians also, in that they are sinners, stand under this accusation which uncovers their sin so that, in faith in the gospel, they will turn unreservedly to the mercy of God in Christ, which alone justifies them.

33.Because the law as a way to salvation has been fulfilled and overcome through the gospel, Catholics can say that Christ is not a lawgiver in the manner of Moses. When Catholics emphasize that the righteous are bound to observe God's commandments, they do not thereby deny that through Jesus Christ God has mercifully promised to his children the grace of eternal life.[18] [See Sources for section 4.5]...

37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.

38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the "meritorious" character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.

39.The concept of a preservation of grace and a growth in grace and faith is also held by Lutherans. They do emphasize that righteousness as acceptance by God and sharing in the righteousness of Christ is always complete. At the same time, they state that there can be growth in its effects in Christian living. When they view the good works of Christians as the fruits and signs of justification and not as one's own "merits", they nevertheless also understand eternal life in accord with the New Testament as unmerited "reward" in the sense of the fulfillment of God's promise to the believer. [See Sources for section 4.7].

...

41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.

42.Nothing is thereby taken away from the seriousness of the condemnations related to the doctrine of justification. Some were not simply pointless. They remain for us "salutary warnings" to which we must attend in our teaching and practice.[21]

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3. Let me give you a scenario which DOES fall under the anathemata of Trent: suppose you had in your church a visiting practising homosexual who prayed the sinner's prayer, invited Christ into his life and was firmly told that homosexual behaviour was prohibited to the Christian, but nevertheless continued to conduct a sexual relationship with his male partner. Would you say that man was saved? Or what if he was celibate for a while and then fell back into his old lifestyle unrepentedly? Unless you are a strict 5-point TULIP Calvinist believing in OSAS, I think the answer (in so far as we can ever judge someone else's salvation) is 'no'. That's what Trent was about: the CC heard and read Luther's works and saw the fruits of that, which is some cases were of course very good, but in other cases, particularly in the Germany of the 1520s, amounted to gross licentiousness, 'sinning so that grace abounded'; this horrified the Catholic hierarchy which met at Trent and they - rightly IMO - condemned that attitude.

Melanie · Mar 2, 2006

This message went BUMP.

Eliyahu · Mar 2, 2006

Matt and B-G,

I have never heard from you commenting on Idol making and Idol worship. Do you consent to those reality of RC?

I want to hear about your comments on this:

http://www.aloha.net/%7Emikesch/crown.htm

Especially your Holy Father crowns the Idol !

Maybe next Holy Father may crown Samba Lady!

Matt Black · Mar 2, 2006

As far as I'm concerned, the Catholics do neither.

DHK · Mar 2, 2006

Originally posted by Matt Black:
No mental gymnastics required, Mike . I'll just let the facts speak for themselves:-

1. The anathemata of Trent still stand. They have never been revoked.

2. However, they need to be read in the context of what the 16th century Catholic Church believed Lutheranism to be saying and what they now acknowledge Lutherans actually believe. That context is laid out in the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification issued by the CC and the Lutherans. Since no-one seems to have bothered to read the link. I'll quote the salient points, with some parts italicised by me for emphasis:-

[qb]15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.
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We could take each of the points all at once, and show how they are false. But just the first will do. It still is heresy.
1. Faith is not God's gift through the Holy Spirit when it comes to salvation. Fatih is simply confidence that what Christ has done on the cross is sufficient to take away your sins or not. Do you believe in him or not. Will you receive him or not. Before the time one receives Christ as Saviour he is spiritually dead. He has no gift from God. He must trust him, put his confidence in the promises of God that He will save him.

2."who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers"
--Absolute heresy! Faith is not a sacrament, nor does it work through any so-called "sacrament." There are no sacraments in the Bible. This is what makes the RCC a works salvation. The RCC has just contradicted itself. If faith works through the sacraments and not through Christ alone, then it is works. If it works through the sacraments, it is not grace, for grace involves no works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And if by grace it is no more of sacraments.

You have redefined faith, and in doing so redefined salvation, and in doing so have redefined justification.
When you redefine Biblical terminology to make it fit your own religion you do exactly what the cults do. And you wonder why some people call it a cult??
DHK
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D28guy · Mar 3, 2006

Interestingly, there is a story in the newspaper that serves the county I live in with an interesting quote in it.

The story is about "Ash Wednesday", which had just been the previous day. They spoke with the priest at the Catholic Church in that city, and he said this...

(bolding mine)

"Its a time of preperation, fasting, and increased prayer to prepare ourselves for what takes place at the end of Lent, but also for what takes place at the end of our lives when we die. Our ultimate goal is to make sure we are holy and as good as we can be, so Ash Wednesday helps by encouraging fasting, prayer, doing good, and correcting our ways".
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"make sure we are holy and as good as we can be..."at the end of our lives when we die"
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Of course this makes perfect sense, considering that to the Catholic heaven is something given to those who earn it by being good enough.

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Link

Grace and peace,

Mike

Matt Black · Mar 3, 2006

Originally posted by DHK:
We could take each of the points all at once, and show how they are false. But just the first will do. It still is heresy.
1. Faith is not God's gift through the Holy Spirit when it comes to salvation. Fatih is simply confidence that what Christ has done on the cross is sufficient to take away your sins or not. Do you believe in him or not. Will you receive him or not. Before the time one receives Christ as Saviour he is spiritually dead. He has no gift from God. He must trust him, put his confidence in the promises of God that He will save him.
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Then you are turning faith itself into a work.

2."who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers"
--Absolute heresy! Faith is not a sacrament,
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Er...that's not what the quote says. It is the Holy Spirit who works through the word of God and the sacraments Jesus instituted.

nor does it work through any so-called "sacrament." There are no sacraments in the Bible.
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Only according to your personal interpretation of the Bible. If however you, as countless Christians have done from Apostolic times, read the Scriptures through the illumination of the Holy Spirit as mediated through Christ's Church, then you will be able to see that there is plenty in Scripture to support a sacramental economy of sanctification - Mark 16:16, Jn 3:5, Jn 6:32-59,Acts 2:38-39.

This is what makes the RCC a works salvation.
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No it doesn't! It isn't! How many times to I have to state the glaringly obvious! You obviously haven't bothered to read the links I gave to the Catechism or the JDDJ; if you did, it would be staring at you in the face that it is not a 'works' salvation. (We really need a 'bashing my head against a brick wall' graemlin.)

The RCC has just contradicted itself. If faith works through the sacraments and not through Christ alone, then it is works. If it works through the sacraments, it is not grace, for grace involves no works.
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Faith does not work through the sacraments; however God's sanctifying grace is communicated (amongst other ways) through these. These are however not works of man but works of God - how can they be otherwise, since they were instituted by the Lord Himself?!

And if by grace it is no more of sacraments.
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Wrong again! See my comment above.

You have redefined faith, and in doing so redefined salvation, and in doing so have redefined justification.
When you redefine Biblical terminology to make it fit your own religion you do exactly what the cults do. And you wonder why some people call it a cult??
DHK
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And how do I know that that is not what you're doing? All I have to go on is your diktat of 'Scripture says...' followed by your personal interpretation of what 'Scripture' apparently 'says'

And, Mike, you and I both know that he was talking about sanctification; surely you want to be as close to God as you possibly can during your life here on earth? I think I need say no more about that...

D28guy · Mar 3, 2006

MattBlack,

(bolding mine)

"Only according to your personal interpretation of the Bible. If however you, as countless Christians have done from Apostolic times, read the Scriptures through the illumination of the Holy Spirit as mediated through Christ's Church, then you will be able to see..."
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Ahhh, but that is identical to the Jehovahs Wittnesses, Mormons, Branch Davidians, an Jim Jones.

They all say that very same thing...

"...read the Scriptures through the illumination of the Holy Spirit as mediated through the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, then you will be able to see..."

"...read the Scriptures through the illumination of the Holy Spirit as mediated through the Book of Mormon and Doctrines and Covenants, then you will be able to see..."

"...read the Scriptures through the illumination of the Holy Spirit as mediated through David Koresh, then you will be able to see..."

"...read the Scriptures through the illumination of the Holy Spirit as mediated through Jim Jones, then you will be able to see..."

In several previous posts it has been demonstrated that the Catholic Church promotes the very works based false gospel that God places his curse upon in the book of Galatiens.

Now hopefully you can see that the Catholic Church uses the same indoctrination tactics as these other cults in order to keep people in bondage to them.

The Catholic Church tells its people...

"YOU have no right to interpret the scriptures. You are unable to do that. You need US to do that for you. You must NEVER attempt to interpret the scriptures...you must always believe exactly the way we command, because WE have the key to unlock the scriptures, and you dont".

That is "cultism explained 101", Matt.

How can you not see something so clear?

Sadly,

Mike

Matt Black · Mar 3, 2006

...except that that teaching authority - that of the Church - was founded on Christ and the Apostles, not some latter-day 'prophet'. And I never experienced any 'bondage' or mind-control in the way you describe it in my 16 or so years as a Catholic.

Apples and oranges.

D28guy · Mar 3, 2006

Matt,

"And, Mike, you and I both know that he was talking about sanctification; surely you want to be as close to God as you possibly can during your life here on earth? I think I need say no more about that..."
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No. What he said was clearly in the context of making it to heaven when we die. or...being saved rather than going to hell.

When he spoke of doing those things because of what comes after Lent, he then said...clearly...that Catholics also do those things to be able to be "good enough" to be let into heaven for their goodness.

I dont know how you can miss it. I mean, I bolded the pertinent parts...

"Its a time of preperation, fasting, and increased prayer to prepare ourselves for what takes place at the end of Lent,..."
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And what is the other reason?...

"...but also for what takes place at the end of our lives when we die. Our ultimate goal is to make sure we are holy and as good as we can be, so Ash Wednesday helps by encouraging fasting, prayer, doing good, and correcting our ways"."
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Why?

So they might be good enough for...

"...what takes place at the end of our lives when we die."
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Mike

Matt Black · Mar 3, 2006

Yep...to be in the presence of the Holy and Living God ("Be holy as I am holy"). What's wrong with aspiring to that? Eminently Biblical, I'd say...

D28guy · Mar 3, 2006

Matt,

I spoke of the Catholic Church using the identical tactics as the Jehovahs Wittnesses, Mormons, David Koresh, etc, and you said...

"...except that that teaching authority - that of the Church - was founded on Christ and the Apostles, not some latter-day 'prophet'."
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Well of course the Catholic Church tells their people that!

IT...IS...A...LIE, Matt.

This monolithic organisation known today as the (((Catholic Church))) bears absolutly no resemblance, either visually, hierarchially, or doctrinally...to the church of "Christ and the apostles" in the 1st century.

The "Church of Christ and the Apostles" would not be overflowing with blashphemies, idolatry, false teaching and a false gospel.

"And I never experienced any 'bondage' or mind-control in the way you describe it in my 16 or so years as a Catholic."
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Then why are you on these boards defending.....the indefensible?

God bless,

Mike

Matt Black · Mar 3, 2006

The Catholic Church has not told me that. It's a conclusion I've reached through studying Scripture and Church history.

D28guy · Mar 3, 2006

Matt,

You must be a night owl like me, but its time for me to hit the sack.

Have a good day tomorrow,

God bless,

Mike

Matt Black · Mar 3, 2006

It's tomorrow here already! Sleep well and have a good one yourself

Eliyahu · Mar 3, 2006

Originally posted by Matt Black:
As far as I'm concerned, the Catholics do neither.
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How much blinded are you !

Look at this once again:

http://www.aloha.net/%7Emikesch/crown.htm

http://www.catholic-doc.org/miscellany/1998/0598-may.html

http://www.aloha.net/%7Emikesch/baruch.htm

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/resources/engseven.html#uru

How can you explain it ? Is it a sports or arts that one puts something on top of a statue as a veneration?

Matt Black · Mar 3, 2006

Look at what?

Eliyahu · Mar 3, 2006

Baruch considered as Bible by Catholics denounce the putting clothes or adornation on it as heretic. Have you read Baruch 6 ?

Roman Catholicism , cult or not?

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