-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Roman Catholicism , cult or not?
- Thread starter shannonL
- Start date
Define idolatry. (Hint: the root is in the Greek latria 
)
)
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Acts 17:11 the Church apostles "themselves" are "judged" by non-church members and even "approved for doing it" since the judgment is based on the "Word of God".
In Acts 20 we are told that from "WITHIN" the church errors would arise.
In 2Thess 2 we see the "predicted apostacy" of the church.
But in all this - God has true believers like John the baptizer standing for truth when his generation was going into apostacy (in the case of the one true church pre-cross)
In Acts 17:11 the NT had not been given. Therefore the 'word of God' was incomplete; they only had the OT to go on.
The likelihood of false teaching arising made it a necessity for the teaching authority to which I refer being established. It was, and those errors - gnosticism in all its forms, Marcionism, Montanism, the various Trinitarian and Christological heresies - were dealt with effectively by that authority.
The likelihood of false teaching arising made it a necessity for the teaching authority to which I refer being established. It was, and those errors - gnosticism in all its forms, Marcionism, Montanism, the various Trinitarian and Christological heresies - were dealt with effectively by that authority.
That is a red herring. There are many parts of this world today which still do not have the complete New Testament. When Adoniram Judson went to Burma they had no Bible at all, neither did William Carey when he went to India. But that didn't stop them from establishing churches. Paul went to Berea. The Bereans had the Old Testament (more than the Burmese or Indians had). They also had the direct revelation of God that was given to Paul from God.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
These were three supernatural gifts that were in use before the Bible was complete in which God gave direct revelation to his messeenger giving New Testament knowledge.
All that Paul said was verifiable in the Old Testament. They veriried everything that he said in the Scriptures that they had. This is sola scriptura.
DHK
I think you accused me of this before, and I gave you an acceptable answer. Faith is not a work. Trust is not a work. Confidence (which faith is) is not a work. Work is something that you do, as in baptism.
Instead of trying to explain it on a philosophical level, I will let the Scripture explain it. If you believe not the Scriptures, then your argument is with God, not with me.
1. The Scriptures explicitly say that salvation is not of works.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
It is by grace through faith. And if it is by faith; it is by faith alone. The Scripture does not indicate any other agent here does it? It clearly says through faith...the gift of God...not of works
2. Salvation is also by grace, and grace alone. The definition of grace is the free unmerited favor of God. Concerning salvation Christ came down and freely provided salvation by dying on the cross for us. He (by himself) paid the full penalty of our sins. There is no way that we can play any role in that salvation through means of baptism or purgatory or any other such rite. He paid the full penalty. It was all through grace.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Grace eliminates works. Faith is not a work. But "sacraments" are works. Sacraments play no role in salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith.
3. There is only one requirement for salvation: to have faith, that is to believe on the sacrificial work of Christ by inviting Jesus Christ to be your Saviour. Notice I didn't say sinner's prayer. Not one individual on this board (in this thread) has used that term but you. So, you have implicitly have made some false accusations. Notice what Paul said to the Philippian jailor when he asked about salvation.
Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,
--Belief (faith) is the only requirement.
4. What did Jesus say about faith?
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--The natural mind thinks they have to DO something to get to heaven: be baptized, be a member of a church, get confirmed, keep the Ten Commandments, be good, do works, do, do, do, do, etc.
Jesus answered there is no doing. There are no works. Faith is not a work. He answered sarcastically. If you must call it a work; the only "work" that you can do is believe on him who sent him. The only requirement for salvation is faith (belief).
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Faith is not a work. If you still believe that it is, then your argument is with God, not with me.
I quoted you what was written. Neither does faith nor the Holy Spirit work through a sacrament. There are no sacraments in the Bible. Sacraments are man-made. And the sacraments of the RCC are an abomination in His sight. Transubstantiation is heresy. The Holy Spirit does not work through transubstantiation. The Holy Spirit does not work through the water of baptism either. The water does not suddenly turn holy by some magical power. That is sorcery, witchcraft. There is no grace imparted through the sacrament of baptism. The Holy Spirit does not work through the water in baptism. It is heresy. Water will get you wet and that is all. Your approach to baptism using a sacramental approach is more akin to the occult than to Biblical Christianity, which makes it all the more reason to put it into the realm of a cult.
You have given no evidence to support your position. John 3:5, for example talks about the new birth. That is not a sacrament. In fact baptism is not even mentioned in that passage. The word "sacrament" is not found in the Bible, not even once. Again that passage is speaking about faith, and faith alone. If one is born again is he is born of the Spirit by putting his faith in Christ.
There is no "sacramental economy." Where do you come up with such man-made things. It is better just to believe the Bible.
It is a works salvation. I was there for 20 years, and yes I have studied the catechism and have a copy of the documents of Vatican II sitting right beside me. You must be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved. You must be baptized of the Catholic Church to be saved. You must keep the sacraments to be saved. You must not fall into mortal sin in order to maintain your salvation. That in itself makes it a works salvation. It is do, do, do, do, etc. What happens in the Catholic church if one never confesses their sins to a priest? The Bible says that is not necessary, but the man-made rules of the Catholic Church says it is? Works--do, do, do! It is a works based salvation!
Another contradiction. So baptism was an "ordinance" or command given or instituted by Christ. It is not a sacrament. It does not impart grace. Nothing magical happens to the one receiving the baptism. That is sorcery to believe such. "God sanctifying grace is NOT communicated through these." When you get baptized you get wet. Baptism is purely symbolic, as are the elements of the Lord's Table. They do not change. Wine is wine, and bread is bread. They are symbolic. A marriage ceremony is a marriage ceremony. It is not a sacrament. Two people get married. Does a special explosion of grace suddenly come upon them? No. The Catholic Church believes in witchcraft. It is occultic practicing sorcery, changing those things that are symbolic into that which is supposedly magical.
DHK
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Are you making your point or mine?
These "non-Christians" with "even less Bible" than we have today were STILL able to judge a first order Apostle like Paul to see "IF those things were so"!!
What excuse then does the modern Christian have for claiming that the Bible is insufficient for the task when it comes to much lesser men than the first order apostles???
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
By "effective" do you refer to the "extermination" policy of Lateran IV?
By error do you mean "purgatory, prayers to the dead, Mary sinless like Christ, Mary all powerful like God" or do you refer to Catholic armies sent out to slaughter rival Catholics?
The Inquisition?
What "error" was "exterminated"?
DHK said...
And since being born again I have spent considerable time in the Catechism, the Council edicts, the Catholic encyclopedia, watching EWTN, reading Catholic Church sponsored literature and writings, etc.
In all of these different avenues of Catholic teaching and thought, Gods gospel of justification through faith alone is ridiculed at the least and condemned at worst...while the works based gospel that Almighty God curses in Galatians is promoted as being true.
This is no small thing we are discussing here.
Mike
And I can, sadly, confirm all of this as being true. I lived my 1st 24 years as a Catholic amd this is just what the Catholic Church is and promotes.
And since being born again I have spent considerable time in the Catechism, the Council edicts, the Catholic encyclopedia, watching EWTN, reading Catholic Church sponsored literature and writings, etc.
In all of these different avenues of Catholic teaching and thought, Gods gospel of justification through faith alone is ridiculed at the least and condemned at worst...while the works based gospel that Almighty God curses in Galatians is promoted as being true.
This is no small thing we are discussing here.
Mike
Dear Eliyahu.....
The question did not warrant an answer because it is nonsense.
Dear D28guy...the section saying that the RCC states the individual has no right to interpret the scripture....is a little strong I feel ....evidence on this Board alone indicates the errors of translation when individuals attempt to decipher aspects of the Gospel. I have not studied Greek or Hebrew and when I study the Bible, I do not hesitate to contact my priest on questions in regards to Biblical interpretation.He has had the benefit on many years of theological training, therefore it is part of his function as pastor to his flock...if I do not understand the interpretation I go to the library attached to the church, or rephrase the question...
As a traditional catholic I am not slavishly following the RCC at this time because I believe that things are not well within....I choose to remain within the church despite the ructions rather than protesting in the sense of creating another splinter group.
The question did not warrant an answer because it is nonsense.
Dear D28guy...the section saying that the RCC states the individual has no right to interpret the scripture....is a little strong I feel ....evidence on this Board alone indicates the errors of translation when individuals attempt to decipher aspects of the Gospel. I have not studied Greek or Hebrew and when I study the Bible, I do not hesitate to contact my priest on questions in regards to Biblical interpretation.He has had the benefit on many years of theological training, therefore it is part of his function as pastor to his flock...if I do not understand the interpretation I go to the library attached to the church, or rephrase the question...
As a traditional catholic I am not slavishly following the RCC at this time because I believe that things are not well within....I choose to remain within the church despite the ructions rather than protesting in the sense of creating another splinter group.
Is one of the 10 commandments a nonsense ?
Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness that is in the heaven above or in the earth beneath or in the water in the earth (Ex 20:4)
Do you have this privilege ?
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you : but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Briony-Gloriana,
Not only does the Catholic Church clearly tell people that they can not go to the word with only the Holy Spirits guidance, but you can see Catholic apologists on this and other discussion web-sites verify that with their posts which say the same thing
(by the way, are you aware that God speaks English just as well as He speaks Greek and Hebrew?)
God bless,
Mike
Its not too strong at all.
Not only does the Catholic Church clearly tell people that they can not go to the word with only the Holy Spirits guidance, but you can see Catholic apologists on this and other discussion web-sites verify that with their posts which say the same thing
Not only do the postings on this board prove that the "sola scriptura" approach is infinetly superior to the cultic "truth gestapo" approach of the Catholic Church...but just evaluating the evangelical/pentecostal world in general proves the superiority of Gods "sola scriptura" truth.
Neither have I, and yet I, and millions just like me, have a much much much clearer view of the scriptures than the cultic "Teaching Magesterium" of the Catholic Church.
(by the way, are you aware that God speaks English just as well as He speaks Greek and Hebrew?)
That is the biggest mistake you could possibly make.
He actually has, sadly, many years of being indoctrinated in false teaching, idolatry, and a false gospel.
God bless,
Mike
I'm sad that some of you are so quick to toss around words like 'heresy', 'idolatry', 'false gospel', and 'cultic' when talking about the Catholic Christians.
It is statements like those bring shame on God's church, pain to his children, and confusion for those who aren't believers.
As I've said before, God's love for his children - especially those who are the most unlovable - is never ending.
Do you people have no morsel of love for your brothers and sisters?
And DO NOT give me that reply about 'Oh, we love them and it would be unloving not to point out their errors'. I've been around long enough to tell the difference between a horse, a horse's rear, and what comes out a horse's rear. When you claim that you really, really love them and then use such cutting words, that is nothing more than what comes out a horse's rear.
Alexander
It is statements like those bring shame on God's church, pain to his children, and confusion for those who aren't believers.
As I've said before, God's love for his children - especially those who are the most unlovable - is never ending.
Do you people have no morsel of love for your brothers and sisters?
And DO NOT give me that reply about 'Oh, we love them and it would be unloving not to point out their errors'. I've been around long enough to tell the difference between a horse, a horse's rear, and what comes out a horse's rear. When you claim that you really, really love them and then use such cutting words, that is nothing more than what comes out a horse's rear.
Alexander
Alexander,
2ndly, speaking for myself, when I use words like "idolatry", "false gospel", "cultic", etc I am referring to the "Roman Catholic" religious organisation and the Teaching Magisterium of the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
Not every individual Catholic person. I consider individual Catholics to be those who are the victims of the Catholic Church.
--Jesus Christ.
"You are white washed tombs...filled with dead mens bones"
--Jesus Christ.
"Serprents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condmnation of Hell?"
--Jesus Christ
Mike
1st of all, more than likely only a small percentage of Catholics are christians, and almost none of those can possibly be a part of the organised "clergy".
2ndly, speaking for myself, when I use words like "idolatry", "false gospel", "cultic", etc I am referring to the "Roman Catholic" religious organisation and the Teaching Magisterium of the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
Not every individual Catholic person. I consider individual Catholics to be those who are the victims of the Catholic Church.
I guess you have a problem with Jesus Christ for calling false religious leaders "white washed tombs" who were "filled with dead mens bones" and telling them they are "of your Father the devil"?
Who is denying that?
I have great great love for those who have been lied to and victimised by the Catholic Church. I love them enough to tell them the truth.
I will tell you that because it is the truth.
So have I.
"You are of your Father the devil"
--Jesus Christ.
"You are white washed tombs...filled with dead mens bones"
--Jesus Christ.
"Serprents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condmnation of Hell?"
--Jesus Christ
Mike