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There is an unseen demonic world of evil spirits. While their revelations are false, they are no less spiritual.

[Jer 14:13-14 KJV] 13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. 14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

What does the Bible say about divination? | GotQuestions.org
"Question: "What does the Bible say about divination?"

Answer: The word divination comes from the Latin divinare, meaning “to foresee” or “to be inspired by a god.” To practice divination is to uncover hidden knowledge by supernatural means. It is associated with the occult and involves fortune-telling or soothsaying, as it used to be called.

From ancient times, people have used divination to gain knowledge of the future or as a way to make money. The practice continues as those who claim supernatural insight read palms, tea leaves, tarot cards, star charts, and more..."

 

I hold that the Apostles, as in the Original 11 and Paul, were perfect in their written down and recorded Theology to us, as that was inspired! So doubt very much that you and I will ever understand Romans as well as Paul!

 

Again, Calvinism based upon the truine God, and centers upon the Cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that foundation would be inspired scripture, not speculation of man made philosophy!

 

One can be saved and just read thru Gospel of John and Romans, and be forced to conclude that salvation is of a God centered basis, and thus calvinistic!

 

Yes indeed, as fruit of the Holy Spirit not based upon which sotierology one holds with!

 

Dave's assertions in black, Van's rebuttal in red:
Yet another thread by a professing Christian that others seem to think should be consigned to a dark corner, because of the frank discussion of subject matter. Ad hominem indicating the use of logical fallacies probably in a dark corner.

Once again we see Van's opinion of what he objects to, and again, it's accepted because this forum does not differentiate between "Baptists" of all stripes... The majority of Baptists are not Calvinists.
Who historically have held "Calvinistic" beliefs and teachings since long before any of us were ever born. One branch held Calvinistic views, the other Free will Baptists did not.

Timothy knew the Scriptures because his mother was a Jew ( and was also a believer in Christ ), and his father was a "Greek" ( Gentile ) ( Acts of the Apostles 16:1-5 ). All Jews were instructed in the Law and prophets, as anyone under the Law of Moses was. Once again the absurdity is claimed, a person can know scripture yet be unable to understand all spiritual things. This ploy of denying their own doctrine belongs in a dark corner.

But based on Scripture itself, God's word can only be truly understood by people to whom it has been given to ( Matthew 13:11, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, Luke 24:45, John 8:43-47, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Here the claim is all the listed verses indicate the lost cannot "know scripture" unless enabled by "irresistible grace." But lets take a look:

Matthew 13:11 says Jesus spoke in parables to keep His revelation a mystery, but the explanation is contained in scripture. So no support whatsoever, but false doctrine needs false assertions.

Mark 4:11-12 again addresses Jesus using parables to control the timing of His revelation, but Mark 4:13 and following explains the parables to those who know scripture.

Luke 8:10, same bogus argument with explanation provided in following verses.

Luke 24:45 has an explaination from Jesus"opening their minds." So here we have a vague phrase "opening their minds" and the Calvinists pour in their false doctrine, it means enabling understanding via irresistible grace. Utter nonsense. Every time someone sheds light on scripture, such as Pastors do every Sunday, it is "opening the minds" of the audience.

John 8:43-47 says those who are "of the Devil" are not open to believing truth. Very true, but John 8:47 says those who are open to God's word do understand. Thus the same message as Matthew 13, soil #1 was not able to understand the gospel, but the rest of mankind was open and could understand.

1 Corinthians 1:18 says those who are perishing, referring to those who have rejected the gospel, rather than those who are open to God's word.

1 Corinthians 2:4-3-3 says men of flesh (not indwelt) can understand (spiritual) milk, thus once again some spiritual things (milk) can be understood and responded to.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Here we have a very important passage. If the Fall caused the fallen to have "total Spiritual inability" how did the god of this world (Satan) blind them, if they were already blinded by the Fall? So the very passage cited disproves the premise!!!

The Law acts as a tutor to lead sinners to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 )...but unless someone has "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:27, Revelation 3:6, etc. ) they will not hear the words of God as anything other than foolishness ( read John 8:43-47 carefully, perhaps you will come to see this as I have ). Jesus did what the Father willed, and God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan. Soils 2, 3 and 4 all had "ears to hear."

Ever wonder why when you quote Scripture or preach the Gospel to people, that it simply "bounces off" ( I've actually seen it happen )? The Calvinists invented a reason why many rejected their gospel, putting the blame of God. Utter nonsense.

May God bless you sir, in many ways.

 

Unless and until the Holy Spirit enables a sinner to really hear and see and understand, they are deaf, dumb, and blind in spiritual sense!

 

Jon, reading your comments is like trying to capture swirling waters with a net. You go all over the place yet provide no substantive opinion. It's like watching a jellyfish go by.
It would be beneficial to us all if you would do less philosophizing and more speaking with authoritative statements. But, alas, it seems that speaking in code is what you enjoy most.
I find it odd that you enjoy systematic theology yet refuse to actually hold any systematic theology.

 

Hopefully this copy of my earlier post addressing the validity of TULIP will set the stage for a discussion based on scripture.

"While I believe TULIP is supported via scripture, I do not consider myself a Calvinist because of his anti-Semitic views.

TULIP

T of TULIP Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)


[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..


[Jer 17:9 ESV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?



U of TULIP Unconditional Election

Rom 8:28 - 30 ESV - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


L of TULIP Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)

[Jhn 10:3-4 ESV] 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

[1Co 15:23 ESV] 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

[Phl 3:12 ESV] 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.


I of TULIP Irresistible Grace

[Jhn 6:37-40 ESV] 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."


[Tit 3:5-7 ESV] 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


P of TULIP Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

[Eph 1:13-14 ESV] 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

[Eph 4:30 ESV] 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



EXTRA, EXTRA. Read all about it!!

Regardless of the efforts of professing Christian working in the name of Christ, if they are not born-again as His child, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They exercised their will while not in submission to His will.


[Mat 7:21-23 ESV] 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'



Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin

#1Wesley Briggman, Feb 25, 2020"

Anxiously awaiting all replies.

 

Yet another effort to suppress the truth with a regurgitation of falsehoods. Since we are chosen through or on the basis of faith, and our indwelling seals us in Christ after being chosen for salvation, the Holy Spirit's role is the inspired scripture, which Timothy knew from infancy, well before he was placed in Christ and indwelt.

Dave's assertions in black, Van's rebuttal in red:
Yet another thread by a professing Christian that others seem to think should be consigned to a dark corner, because of the frank discussion of subject matter. Ad hominem indicating the use of logical fallacies probably in a dark corner.

Once again we see Van's opinion of what he objects to, and again, it's accepted because this forum does not differentiate between "Baptists" of all stripes... The majority of Baptists are not Calvinists.
Who historically have held "Calvinistic" beliefs and teachings since long before any of us were ever born. One branch held Calvinistic views, the other Free will Baptists did not.

Timothy knew the Scriptures because his mother was a Jew ( and was also a believer in Christ ), and his father was a "Greek" ( Gentile ) ( Acts of the Apostles 16:1-5 ). All Jews were instructed in the Law and prophets, as anyone under the Law of Moses was. Once again the absurdity is claimed, a person can know scripture yet be unable to understand all spiritual things. This ploy of denying their own doctrine belongs in a dark corner.

But based on Scripture itself, God's word can only be truly understood by people to whom it has been given to ( Matthew 13:11, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, Luke 24:45, John 8:43-47, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Here the claim is all the listed verses indicate the lost cannot "know scripture" unless enabled by "irresistible grace." But lets take a look:

Matthew 13:11 says Jesus spoke in parables to keep His revelation a mystery, but the explanation is contained in scripture. So no support whatsoever, but false doctrine needs false assertions.

Mark 4:11-12 again addresses Jesus using parables to control the timing of His revelation, but Mark 4:13 and following explains the parables to those who know scripture.

Luke 8:10, same bogus argument with explanation provided in following verses.

Luke 24:45 has an explanation from Jesus"opening their minds." So here we have a vague phrase "opening their minds" and the Calvinists pour in their false doctrine, it means enabling understanding via irresistible grace. Utter nonsense. Every time someone sheds light on scripture, such as Pastors do every Sunday, it is "opening the minds" of the audience.

John 8:43-47 says those who are "of the Devil" are not open to believing truth. Very true, but John 8:47 says those who are open to God's word do understand. Thus the same message as Matthew 13, soil #1 was not able to understand the gospel, but the rest of mankind was open and could understand.

1 Corinthians 1:18 says those who are perishing, referring to those who have rejected the gospel, rather than those who are open to God's word.

1 Corinthians 2:4-3-3 says men of flesh (not indwelt) can understand (spiritual) milk, thus once again some spiritual things (milk) can be understood and responded to.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Here we have a very important passage. If the Fall caused the fallen to have "total Spiritual inability" how did the god of this world (Satan) blind them, if they were already blinded by the Fall? So the very passage cited disproves the premise!!!

The Law acts as a tutor to lead sinners to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 )...but unless someone has "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:27, Revelation 3:6, etc. ) they will not hear the words of God as anything other than foolishness ( read John 8:43-47 carefully, perhaps you will come to see this as I have ). Jesus did what the Father willed, and God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan. Soils 2, 3 and 4 all had "ears to hear."

Ever wonder why when you quote Scripture or preach the Gospel to people, that it simply "bounces off" ( I've actually seen it happen )? The Calvinists invented a reason why many rejected their gospel, putting the blame of God. Utter nonsense.

 

Blame for rejecting the Gospel never put on God by us, its placed upon lost sinners who reject Jesus to save them from their sins!