Revealed and Concealed Truth.

[JonC]

Respectfully, Jon, I don't think the problem is one that is philosophical in nature.
As for James White, I don't pay much attention to him or his desires to debate people.

I value obedience to the Lord more than getting my point across, but that is something I've come to slowly over time and much study.
God is still working on me.

Finally, I'm not a Calvinist.
If you wish to label me as such, that is fine, but for the record I do not take my understanding of Scripture from any systematized theology, and definitely did not borrow it from a man.
Admittedly, I have no use for man-made systematized theologies and commentaries, and disdain their usage as well as other constructs like "bible colleges".

I take seriously the concept of "Sola Scriptura" and came to my understanding strictly through my studies, and nothing more.
I had never heard of John Calvin before roughly 2003, and that was only after I'd already come to understand election in Scripture.

That said, I must retire to bed.
Work awaits early in the morning.

Good evening to you, sir.

No one becomes a Calvinist because they study John Calvin or Systematic Theology. People become Calvinists because they study Scripture and interpret Scripture along the lines of Calvinism. We all hold philosophies and worldviews because we are human. We still see through a glass dimly and know in part. Calvinists can claim that God showed them Calvinism (and perhaps the angel took the golden tablets and magic glasses), but they reasoned out Scripture and came up with that conclusion on their own.

What we do is look at Scripture and see where understandings may be wrong. In other words, we test doctrine which should be developed from Scripture against Scripture itself. Calvinism cannot stand this test (except by a Calvinist...which is subjective by definition). It might be correct but it is not strictly biblical. Other issues may arise depending on where people take the doctrine.

Systematic theology is studying and reasoning out Scripture as a whole. I always encourage this approach as we do it anyway and having a plan (and realizing we see through the glass dimly in this life) is necessary.

I think you would appreciate Calvin. His works on prayer (and his pastoral works in general) are very good.

My comments here is that the first step in studying Scripture should be in examining our presuppositions (we all have them). Two thousand years have passed since the Apostles walked the earth. Do we really think that their worldview is like ours?

I am glad you are not a Calvinist, although I believe that the conclusion of TULIP is correct.

 

[JonC]

You guys have to get off the kick that "philosophy" is a bad word. If you think Scripture is absent philosophy then you are foolish. Scripture brings up more than one judicial philosophy. I just believe that Calvinism applies the wrong one to divine justice.

My belief is that the Christian worldview and philosophy is different from a human worldview and philosophy. Calvinism applies a human worldview and philosophy to divine justice as the "normal reading" or "plain meaning" to the text. That is where I believe that Calvinism fails - it was still born.

That said, I do believe that man cannot turn to God except God draw him, that God unconditional to man's merit elects men, that Christ died to save the elect given Him by God, that God's purpose in salvation will be accomplished without deficit, that we are given eternal life, and that God has decreed who will be saved and who will be lost. I also believe that Christ died so that all men can be saved, that men must repent and believe of their own will to be saved, and that many who believe now will perish in the end. These all fit together. If you do not understand how then you are probably a Calvinist.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

The Word of God is the source of everything spiritual and faith is the prerequisite of understanding.

There is an unseen demonic world of evil spirits. While their revelations are false, they are no less spiritual.

[Jer 14:13-14 KJV] 13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. 14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

What does the Bible say about divination? | GotQuestions.org
"Question: "What does the Bible say about divination?"

Answer: The word divination comes from the Latin divinare, meaning “to foresee” or “to be inspired by a god.” To practice divination is to uncover hidden knowledge by supernatural means. It is associated with the occult and involves fortune-telling or soothsaying, as it used to be called.

From ancient times, people have used divination to gain knowledge of the future or as a way to make money. The practice continues as those who claim supernatural insight read palms, tea leaves, tarot cards, star charts, and more..."

 

[JonC]

There is an unseen demonic world of evil spirits. While their revelations are false, they are no less spiritual.

[Jer 14:13-14 KJV] 13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. 14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

What does the Bible say about divination? | GotQuestions.org
"Question: "What does the Bible say about divination?"

Answer: The word divination comes from the Latin divinare, meaning “to foresee” or “to be inspired by a god.” To practice divination is to uncover hidden knowledge by supernatural means. It is associated with the occult and involves fortune-telling or soothsaying, as it used to be called.

From ancient times, people have used divination to gain knowledge of the future or as a way to make money. The practice continues as those who claim supernatural insight read palms, tea leaves, tarot cards, star charts, and more..."

Good point. Our struggle is not with flesh and blood.

 

[Iconoclast]

Biblical truth is concealed or revealed by the Spirit of God.
These truths concern grace and mercy granted by God in salvation.
Without these truths what you have is man centered religion.
Roman's 1 explains how men create idols,and false philosophies.
We are to cast down such vain imaginations which attempt to oppose the grace of God.

 

[JonC]

The problem comes in when people believe their theologies are "spiritual truth".

Scripture is very clear about not judging Another's servant. Calvinists should seek to be the best Christians they can be. Non-Calvinists should seek to be the best Christians they can be.

How foolish would man be if he thought Calvinism or its non-Calvinistic counterpart were spiritual truth itself.

Spiritual Truth is the same regardless of one's soteriological understanding. The issue is some Christians believe that their understanding, their theology, their reasoning out of biblical knowledge, is itself "spiritual truth". They are spiritually immature at best, blind and spiritually dead at worst, as the spirit leads to all spiritual truth. Too many seek knowledge rather than spiritual truth. Seek knowledge, but seek first the Kingdom of God.

You can see spiritual truth embodied in the lives of Calvinists like George Müller and non-Calvinists like D.L. Moody.

 

[Yeshua1]

Dave,
Where did you ever get the idea that the apostles were any better than the least of God's saints?

Reading the Scriptures, I clearly see where both Peter and Paul made colossal mistakes, and showed that they are mere men like the rest of us....
But for the Spirit of God working through them.

Also, where did you ever get the idea that only apostles could understand the Bible?
If you don't mind my asking, did some man teach you that, or was it a church?

I know that the Roman Catholic Church stands on such principles, but I never thought I'd see or hear a Baptist claim that Scripture cannot be confidently studied and understood by all of God's people.

I hold that the Apostles, as in the Original 11 and Paul, were perfect in their written down and recorded Theology to us, as that was inspired! So doubt very much that you and I will ever understand Romans as well as Paul!

 

[Yeshua1]

You forget that Paul was speaking as a believer. Renewing one's mind does not mean ridding one's self of the human condition. I think you are confusing what I mean by philosophy with a bad take on the word.

We have worldviews that are different from each other and different from first century Judaism.

The problem I have with Calvinism is that no Calvinist has explained why the judicial philosophy Calvinism assumes is correct.

I was a Calvinist for decades. I preached and taught in a Calvinist way because that is how I understood Scripture. At some point I realized so much of Calvinism is dependant on philosophies that I could not justify via Scripture.

It did not take long to figure out that no one seemed able to defend Calvinism's core worldview (exchanging for "philosophy"). Calvinists just regurgitate Scripture as if it answers the question because in their blindness it does.

If the base philosophy is correct then I would reconsider Calvinism. Thus far it seems not only absent from but contrary to Scripture.

That is why I am no longer a Calvinist. I became a Calvinist because of issues of the will - and I still affirm those conclusions (I agree with the conclusions of TULIP). But it has been proven to me thus far that Calvinism is on a very weak and humanistic foundation. Again, this could change.

Adding to this is the "spiritual" fruits of some who are very (hyper) Calvinists on this board. It seems the more Calvinistic they are the more un-Christlike their behavior. Borrowing a bit from James White - based on the lack of power Calvinism seems to have in the lives of its adherents, why would a Christian want to be associated with the label?

Again, Calvinism based upon the truine God, and centers upon the Cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that foundation would be inspired scripture, not speculation of man made philosophy!

 

[Yeshua1]

No one becomes a Calvinist because they study John Calvin or Systematic Theology. People become Calvinists because they study Scripture and interpret Scripture along the lines of Calvinism. We all hold philosophies and worldviews because we are human. We still see through a glass dimly and know in part. Calvinists can claim that God showed them Calvinism (and perhaps the angel took the golden tablets and magic glasses), but they reasoned out Scripture and came up with that conclusion on their own.

What we do is look at Scripture and see where understandings may be wrong. In other words, we test doctrine which should be developed from Scripture against Scripture itself. Calvinism cannot stand this test (except by a Calvinist...which is subjective by definition). It might be correct but it is not strictly biblical. Other issues may arise depending on where people take the doctrine.

Systematic theology is studying and reasoning out Scripture as a whole. I always encourage this approach as we do it anyway and having a plan (and realizing we see through the glass dimly in this life) is necessary.

I think you would appreciate Calvin. His works on prayer (and his pastoral works in general) are very good.

My comments here is that the first step in studying Scripture should be in examining our presuppositions (we all have them). Two thousand years have passed since the Apostles walked the earth. Do we really think that their worldview is like ours?

I am glad you are not a Calvinist, although I believe that the conclusion of TULIP is correct.

One can be saved and just read thru Gospel of John and Romans, and be forced to conclude that salvation is of a God centered basis, and thus calvinistic!

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem comes in when people believe their theologies are "spiritual truth".

Scripture is very clear about not judging Another's servant. Calvinists should seek to be the best Christians they can be. Non-Calvinists should seek to be the best Christians they can be.

Spiritual Truth is the same regardless of one's soteriological understanding. The issue is some Christians believe that their understanding, their theology, their reasoning out of biblical knowledge, is itself "spiritual truth". They are spiritually immature at best, blind and spiritually dead at worst, as the spirit leads to all spiritual truth. Too many seek knowledge rather than spiritual truth. Seek knowledge, but seek first the Kingdom of God.

You ca Holy Spiritn see spiritual truth embodied in the lives of Calvinists like George Müller and non-Calvinists like D.L. Moody.

Yes indeed, as fruit of the Holy Spirit not based upon which sotierology one holds with!

 

[Van]

Dave's assertions in black, Van's rebuttal in red:
Yet another thread by a professing Christian that others seem to think should be consigned to a dark corner, because of the frank discussion of subject matter. Ad hominem indicating the use of logical fallacies probably in a dark corner.

Once again we see Van's opinion of what he objects to, and again, it's accepted because this forum does not differentiate between "Baptists" of all stripes... The majority of Baptists are not Calvinists.
Who historically have held "Calvinistic" beliefs and teachings since long before any of us were ever born. One branch held Calvinistic views, the other Free will Baptists did not.

Timothy knew the Scriptures because his mother was a Jew ( and was also a believer in Christ ), and his father was a "Greek" ( Gentile ) ( Acts of the Apostles 16:1-5 ). All Jews were instructed in the Law and prophets, as anyone under the Law of Moses was. Once again the absurdity is claimed, a person can know scripture yet be unable to understand all spiritual things. This ploy of denying their own doctrine belongs in a dark corner.

But based on Scripture itself, God's word can only be truly understood by people to whom it has been given to ( Matthew 13:11, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, Luke 24:45, John 8:43-47, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Here the claim is all the listed verses indicate the lost cannot "know scripture" unless enabled by "irresistible grace." But lets take a look:

Matthew 13:11 says Jesus spoke in parables to keep His revelation a mystery, but the explanation is contained in scripture. So no support whatsoever, but false doctrine needs false assertions.

Mark 4:11-12 again addresses Jesus using parables to control the timing of His revelation, but Mark 4:13 and following explains the parables to those who know scripture.

Luke 8:10, same bogus argument with explanation provided in following verses.

Luke 24:45 has an explaination from Jesus"opening their minds." So here we have a vague phrase "opening their minds" and the Calvinists pour in their false doctrine, it means enabling understanding via irresistible grace. Utter nonsense. Every time someone sheds light on scripture, such as Pastors do every Sunday, it is "opening the minds" of the audience.

John 8:43-47 says those who are "of the Devil" are not open to believing truth. Very true, but John 8:47 says those who are open to God's word do understand. Thus the same message as Matthew 13, soil #1 was not able to understand the gospel, but the rest of mankind was open and could understand.

1 Corinthians 1:18 says those who are perishing, referring to those who have rejected the gospel, rather than those who are open to God's word.

1 Corinthians 2:4-3-3 says men of flesh (not indwelt) can understand (spiritual) milk, thus once again some spiritual things (milk) can be understood and responded to.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Here we have a very important passage. If the Fall caused the fallen to have "total Spiritual inability" how did the god of this world (Satan) blind them, if they were already blinded by the Fall? So the very passage cited disproves the premise!!!

The Law acts as a tutor to lead sinners to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 )...but unless someone has "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:27, Revelation 3:6, etc. ) they will not hear the words of God as anything other than foolishness ( read John 8:43-47 carefully, perhaps you will come to see this as I have ). Jesus did what the Father willed, and God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan. Soils 2, 3 and 4 all had "ears to hear."

Ever wonder why when you quote Scripture or preach the Gospel to people, that it simply "bounces off" ( I've actually seen it happen )? The Calvinists invented a reason why many rejected their gospel, putting the blame of God. Utter nonsense.

May God bless you sir, in many ways.

 

[Yeshua1]

Dave's assertions in black, Van's rebuttal in red:
Yet another thread by a professing Christian that others seem to think should be consigned to a dark corner, because of the frank discussion of subject matter. Ad hominem indicating the use of logical fallacies probably in a dark corner.

Once again we see Van's opinion of what he objects to, and again, it's accepted because this forum does not differentiate between "Baptists" of all stripes... The majority of Baptists are not Calvinists.
Who historically have held "Calvinistic" beliefs and teachings since long before any of us were ever born. One branch held Calvinistic views, the other Free will Baptists did not.

Timothy knew the Scriptures because his mother was a Jew ( and was also a believer in Christ ), and his father was a "Greek" ( Gentile ) ( Acts of the Apostles 16:1-5 ). All Jews were instructed in the Law and prophets, as anyone under the Law of Moses was. Once again the absurdity is claimed, a person can know scripture yet be unable to understand all spiritual things. This ploy of denying their own doctrine belongs in a dark corner.

But based on Scripture itself, God's word can only be truly understood by people to whom it has been given to ( Matthew 13:11, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, Luke 24:45, John 8:43-47, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Here the claim is all the listed verses indicate the lost cannot "know scripture" unless enabled by "irresistible grace." But lets take a look:

Matthew 13:11 says Jesus spoke in parables to keep His revelation a mystery, but the explanation is contained in scripture. So no support whatsoever, but false doctrine needs false assertions.

Mark 4:11-12 again addresses Jesus using parables to control the timing of His revelation, but Mark 4:13 and following explains the parables to those who know scripture.

Luke 8:10, same bogus argument with explanation provided in following verses.

Luke 24:45 has an explaination from Jesus"opening their minds." So here we have a vague phrase "opening their minds" and the Calvinists pour in their false doctrine, it means enabling understanding via irresistible grace. Utter nonsense. Every time someone sheds light on scripture, such as Pastors do every Sunday, it is "opening the minds" of the audience.

John 8:43-47 says those who are "of the Devil" are not open to believing truth. Very true, but John 8:47 says those who are open to God's word do understand. Thus the same message as Matthew 13, soil #1 was not able to understand the gospel, but the rest of mankind was open and could understand.

1 Corinthians 1:18 says those who are perishing, referring to those who have rejected the gospel, rather than those who are open to God's word.

1 Corinthians 2:4-3-3 says men of flesh (not indwelt) can understand (spiritual) milk, thus once again some spiritual things (milk) can be understood and responded to.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Here we have a very important passage. If the Fall caused the fallen to have "total Spiritual inability" how did the god of this world (Satan) blind them, if they were already blinded by the Fall? So the very passage cited disproves the premise!!!

The Law acts as a tutor to lead sinners to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 )...but unless someone has "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:27, Revelation 3:6, etc. ) they will not hear the words of God as anything other than foolishness ( read John 8:43-47 carefully, perhaps you will come to see this as I have ). Jesus did what the Father willed, and God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan. Soils 2, 3 and 4 all had "ears to hear."

Ever wonder why when you quote Scripture or preach the Gospel to people, that it simply "bounces off" ( I've actually seen it happen )? The Calvinists invented a reason why many rejected their gospel, putting the blame of God. Utter nonsense.

May God bless you sir, in many ways.

Unless and until the Holy Spirit enables a sinner to really hear and see and understand, they are deaf, dumb, and blind in spiritual sense!

 

[AustinC]

The problem comes in when people believe their theologies are "spiritual truth".

Scripture is very clear about not judging Another's servant. Calvinists should seek to be the best Christians they can be. Non-Calvinists should seek to be the best Christians they can be.

How foolish would man be if he thought Calvinism or its non-Calvinistic counterpart were spiritual truth itself.

Spiritual Truth is the same regardless of one's soteriological understanding. The issue is some Christians believe that their understanding, their theology, their reasoning out of biblical knowledge, is itself "spiritual truth". They are spiritually immature at best, blind and spiritually dead at worst, as the spirit leads to all spiritual truth. Too many seek knowledge rather than spiritual truth. Seek knowledge, but seek first the Kingdom of God.

You can see spiritual truth embodied in the lives of Calvinists like George Müller and non-Calvinists like D.L. Moody.

Jon, reading your comments is like trying to capture swirling waters with a net. You go all over the place yet provide no substantive opinion. It's like watching a jellyfish go by.
It would be beneficial to us all if you would do less philosophizing and more speaking with authoritative statements. But, alas, it seems that speaking in code is what you enjoy most.
I find it odd that you enjoy systematic theology yet refuse to actually hold any systematic theology.

 

[JonC]

Jon, reading your comments is like trying to capture swirling waters with a net. You go all over the place yet provide no substantive opinion. It's like watching a jellyfish go by.
It would be beneficial to us all if you would do less philosophizing and more speaking with authoritative statements. But, alas, it seems that speaking in code is what you enjoy most.
I find it odd that you enjoy systematic theology yet refuse to actually hold any systematic theology.

I can make it clear, I hope.

I believe that Scripture is objective. I believe that in this life we now see through a glass dimly and know in part. It is that simple. I believe that we are to hold Scripture rather than our reasoning of Scripture as God's infallible Word.

I like many things. Systematic Theology is among my favorite things to study. I don't know why you believe I do not hold any as I have already stated that is not the case. I think that the reason you find my comments so confusing is that you are reading a little here and a little there. This seems evident in that you missed that I stated we all hold systematically derived doctrines (by necessity).

You missed one very important fact. I have not entered into any philosophical discussion. I merely stated the fact that Calvinism is heavily dependent on philosophy.

 

[JonC]

Here is the problem we often see (mostly from Calvinists, and I do not know why that is):

They tell you that Calvinism is correct. You ask for proof. They give you verses that you agree with but that do not prove Calvinism.

So you ask "What is your reasoning?" . They say some nonsense like "it's the plain meaning of the text"

You say "But it is not a plain meaning as the text says nothing like that." They say "it is a matter of spiritual discernment".

You say "But that is heresy, we have to text doctrine via Scripture which cannot be done if your doctrine is not actually in the text of Scripture". They moan on about the doctrine of the Trinity.

You say "You are missing the point. The basic doctrine of the Trinity is in the Bible, I'm not saying it has to be detailed or in one place, just give your reasoning".
They say "We do not use reasoning or philosophy....this is "spiritual truth".

They are Baptist Ellen Whites (not all of them, but most I've seen here).

My point in the illustration is that we have to explain our reasoning. You cannot just assume your worldview is correct. You have to explain why it should be the basis. This is where all Calvinists on this forum have failed as it has been an often repeated topic. Calvinists can defend their view within their own presuppositions. BUT they (on this forum) cannot defend their presuppositions.

They just default to "it is what it is" or "God gave me these magical glasses and golden tablets saying so" kind of thing.

I sincerely wish we could discuss the basis for Calvinism, but history tells us that we cannot (at least here, I have read some who offer decent defenses, but never on this forum.

 

[Iconoclast]

In a related point He offers this...

The second problem is not so obvious, but is just as significant: The notion of a probation through which Adam could have been permanently sealed in his righteousness – thereby sealing perfection for the human race – assumes that Adam’s humanity was ultimate.

But the Scripture is clear that Adam’s perfection was the starting point in God’s purposes, not the end point (potential or otherwise). Adam couldn’t be the end point because true humanity was not bound up in him; it is resident in the Second Adam, and so also in all who are joined to Him in the new creation.

True man is the “man of the spirit” and this consummate humanness would not enter the world until Jesus’ Incarnation (cf. John 1:19-34, 3:22-34; 1 Corinthians 15:12ff, esp. vv. 35-58; also Romans 8:1-17).

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Here is the problem we often see (mostly from Calvinists, and I do not know why that is):

They tell you that Calvinism is correct. You ask for proof. They give you verses that you agree with but that do not prove Calvinism.

So you ask "What is your reasoning?" . They say some nonsense like "it's the plain meaning of the text"

You say "But it is not a plain meaning as the text says nothing like that." They say "it is a matter of spiritual discernment".

You say "But that is heresy, we have to text doctrine via Scripture which cannot be done if your doctrine is not actually in the text of Scripture". They moan on about the doctrine of the Trinity.

You say "You are missing the point. The basic doctrine of the Trinity is in the Bible, I'm not saying it has to be detailed or in one place, just give your reasoning".
They say "We do not use reasoning or philosophy....this is "spiritual truth".

They are Baptist Ellen Whites (not all of them, but most I've seen here).

My point in the illustration is that we have to explain our reasoning. You cannot just assume your worldview is correct. You have to explain why it should be the basis. This is where all Calvinists on this forum have failed as it has been an often repeated topic. Calvinists can defend their view within their own presuppositions. BUT they (on this forum) cannot defend their presuppositions.

They just default to "it is what it is" or "God gave me these magical glasses and golden tablets saying so" kind of thing.

I sincerely wish we could discuss the basis for Calvinism, but history tells us that we cannot (at least here, I have read some who offer decent defenses, but never on this forum.

Hopefully this copy of my earlier post addressing the validity of TULIP will set the stage for a discussion based on scripture.

"While I believe TULIP is supported via scripture, I do not consider myself a Calvinist because of his anti-Semitic views.

TULIP

T of TULIP Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)


[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..


[Jer 17:9 ESV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?



U of TULIP Unconditional Election

Rom 8:28 - 30 ESV - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


L of TULIP Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)

[Jhn 10:3-4 ESV] 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

[1Co 15:23 ESV] 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

[Phl 3:12 ESV] 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.


I of TULIP Irresistible Grace

[Jhn 6:37-40 ESV] 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."


[Tit 3:5-7 ESV] 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


P of TULIP Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

[Eph 1:13-14 ESV] 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

[Eph 4:30 ESV] 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



EXTRA, EXTRA. Read all about it!!

Regardless of the efforts of professing Christian working in the name of Christ, if they are not born-again as His child, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They exercised their will while not in submission to His will.


[Mat 7:21-23 ESV] 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'



Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin

#1Wesley Briggman, Feb 25, 2020"

Anxiously awaiting all replies.

 

[Van]

Unless and until the Holy Spirit enables a sinner to really hear and see and understand, they are deaf, dumb, and blind in spiritual sense!

Yet another effort to suppress the truth with a regurgitation of falsehoods. Since we are chosen through or on the basis of faith, and our indwelling seals us in Christ after being chosen for salvation, the Holy Spirit's role is the inspired scripture, which Timothy knew from infancy, well before he was placed in Christ and indwelt.

Dave's assertions in black, Van's rebuttal in red:
Yet another thread by a professing Christian that others seem to think should be consigned to a dark corner, because of the frank discussion of subject matter. Ad hominem indicating the use of logical fallacies probably in a dark corner.

Once again we see Van's opinion of what he objects to, and again, it's accepted because this forum does not differentiate between "Baptists" of all stripes... The majority of Baptists are not Calvinists.
Who historically have held "Calvinistic" beliefs and teachings since long before any of us were ever born. One branch held Calvinistic views, the other Free will Baptists did not.

Timothy knew the Scriptures because his mother was a Jew ( and was also a believer in Christ ), and his father was a "Greek" ( Gentile ) ( Acts of the Apostles 16:1-5 ). All Jews were instructed in the Law and prophets, as anyone under the Law of Moses was. Once again the absurdity is claimed, a person can know scripture yet be unable to understand all spiritual things. This ploy of denying their own doctrine belongs in a dark corner.

But based on Scripture itself, God's word can only be truly understood by people to whom it has been given to ( Matthew 13:11, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, Luke 24:45, John 8:43-47, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Here the claim is all the listed verses indicate the lost cannot "know scripture" unless enabled by "irresistible grace." But lets take a look:

Matthew 13:11 says Jesus spoke in parables to keep His revelation a mystery, but the explanation is contained in scripture. So no support whatsoever, but false doctrine needs false assertions.

Mark 4:11-12 again addresses Jesus using parables to control the timing of His revelation, but Mark 4:13 and following explains the parables to those who know scripture.

Luke 8:10, same bogus argument with explanation provided in following verses.

Luke 24:45 has an explanation from Jesus"opening their minds." So here we have a vague phrase "opening their minds" and the Calvinists pour in their false doctrine, it means enabling understanding via irresistible grace. Utter nonsense. Every time someone sheds light on scripture, such as Pastors do every Sunday, it is "opening the minds" of the audience.

John 8:43-47 says those who are "of the Devil" are not open to believing truth. Very true, but John 8:47 says those who are open to God's word do understand. Thus the same message as Matthew 13, soil #1 was not able to understand the gospel, but the rest of mankind was open and could understand.

1 Corinthians 1:18 says those who are perishing, referring to those who have rejected the gospel, rather than those who are open to God's word.

1 Corinthians 2:4-3-3 says men of flesh (not indwelt) can understand (spiritual) milk, thus once again some spiritual things (milk) can be understood and responded to.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Here we have a very important passage. If the Fall caused the fallen to have "total Spiritual inability" how did the god of this world (Satan) blind them, if they were already blinded by the Fall? So the very passage cited disproves the premise!!!

The Law acts as a tutor to lead sinners to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 )...but unless someone has "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:27, Revelation 3:6, etc. ) they will not hear the words of God as anything other than foolishness ( read John 8:43-47 carefully, perhaps you will come to see this as I have ). Jesus did what the Father willed, and God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan. Soils 2, 3 and 4 all had "ears to hear."

Ever wonder why when you quote Scripture or preach the Gospel to people, that it simply "bounces off" ( I've actually seen it happen )? The Calvinists invented a reason why many rejected their gospel, putting the blame of God. Utter nonsense.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another effort to suppress the truth with a regurgitation of falsehoods. Since we are chosen through or on the basis of faith, and our indwelling seals us in Christ after being chosen for salvation, the Holy Spirit's role is the inspired scripture, which Timothy knew from infancy, well before he was placed in Christ and indwelt.

Dave's assertions in black, Van's rebuttal in red:
Yet another thread by a professing Christian that others seem to think should be consigned to a dark corner, because of the frank discussion of subject matter. Ad hominem indicating the use of logical fallacies probably in a dark corner.

Once again we see Van's opinion of what he objects to, and again, it's accepted because this forum does not differentiate between "Baptists" of all stripes... The majority of Baptists are not Calvinists.
Who historically have held "Calvinistic" beliefs and teachings since long before any of us were ever born. One branch held Calvinistic views, the other Free will Baptists did not.

Timothy knew the Scriptures because his mother was a Jew ( and was also a believer in Christ ), and his father was a "Greek" ( Gentile ) ( Acts of the Apostles 16:1-5 ). All Jews were instructed in the Law and prophets, as anyone under the Law of Moses was. Once again the absurdity is claimed, a person can know scripture yet be unable to understand all spiritual things. This ploy of denying their own doctrine belongs in a dark corner.

But based on Scripture itself, God's word can only be truly understood by people to whom it has been given to ( Matthew 13:11, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, Luke 24:45, John 8:43-47, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).
Here the claim is all the listed verses indicate the lost cannot "know scripture" unless enabled by "irresistible grace." But lets take a look:

Matthew 13:11 says Jesus spoke in parables to keep His revelation a mystery, but the explanation is contained in scripture. So no support whatsoever, but false doctrine needs false assertions.

Mark 4:11-12 again addresses Jesus using parables to control the timing of His revelation, but Mark 4:13 and following explains the parables to those who know scripture.

Luke 8:10, same bogus argument with explanation provided in following verses.

Luke 24:45 has an explanation from Jesus"opening their minds." So here we have a vague phrase "opening their minds" and the Calvinists pour in their false doctrine, it means enabling understanding via irresistible grace. Utter nonsense. Every time someone sheds light on scripture, such as Pastors do every Sunday, it is "opening the minds" of the audience.

John 8:43-47 says those who are "of the Devil" are not open to believing truth. Very true, but John 8:47 says those who are open to God's word do understand. Thus the same message as Matthew 13, soil #1 was not able to understand the gospel, but the rest of mankind was open and could understand.

1 Corinthians 1:18 says those who are perishing, referring to those who have rejected the gospel, rather than those who are open to God's word.

1 Corinthians 2:4-3-3 says men of flesh (not indwelt) can understand (spiritual) milk, thus once again some spiritual things (milk) can be understood and responded to.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Here we have a very important passage. If the Fall caused the fallen to have "total Spiritual inability" how did the god of this world (Satan) blind them, if they were already blinded by the Fall? So the very passage cited disproves the premise!!!

The Law acts as a tutor to lead sinners to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 )...but unless someone has "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:27, Revelation 3:6, etc. ) they will not hear the words of God as anything other than foolishness ( read John 8:43-47 carefully, perhaps you will come to see this as I have ). Jesus did what the Father willed, and God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan. Soils 2, 3 and 4 all had "ears to hear."

Ever wonder why when you quote Scripture or preach the Gospel to people, that it simply "bounces off" ( I've actually seen it happen )? The Calvinists invented a reason why many rejected their gospel, putting the blame of God. Utter nonsense.

Blame for rejecting the Gospel never put on God by us, its placed upon lost sinners who reject Jesus to save them from their sins!

 

[JonC]

Hopefully this copy of my earlier post addressing the validity of TULIP will set the stage for a discussion based on scripture.

"While I believe TULIP is supported via scripture, I do not consider myself a Calvinist because of his anti-Semitic views.

TULIP

T of TULIP Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)


[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..


[Jer 17:9 ESV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?



U of TULIP Unconditional Election

Rom 8:28 - 30 ESV - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


L of TULIP Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)

[Jhn 10:3-4 ESV] 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

[1Co 15:23 ESV] 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

[Phl 3:12 ESV] 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.


I of TULIP Irresistible Grace

[Jhn 6:37-40 ESV] 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."


[Tit 3:5-7 ESV] 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


P of TULIP Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

[Eph 1:13-14 ESV] 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

[Eph 4:30 ESV] 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



EXTRA, EXTRA. Read all about it!!

Regardless of the efforts of professing Christian working in the name of Christ, if they are not born-again as His child, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They exercised their will while not in submission to His will.


[Mat 7:21-23 ESV] 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'



Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin

#1Wesley Briggman, Feb 25, 2020"

Anxiously awaiting all replies.

The earlier church held such a view because they viewed the Jews rather than God as responsible for Christ’s death (God offering Christ to die by their hands, the Jews killing Christ, and God vindicating Christ by raising Him to life). They rejected our view that it was God pouring His wrath on Christ in favor of a position akin to the parable of the king sending his son to the people.

We have to remember that our view of God punishing Christ is a fairly new advent in Christianity. This does not excuse anti-Sematic views, but perhaps it gives a bit of context for their positions.


You set a good stage, brother.