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"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Okay. So whether adopted or begotten. What does it mean to be a brother of Christ?

You should be careful though. In your attempt to escape the eminent conclusion, you're on the cusp of saying that a man musn't be born again. We who are saved are "born of God," "begotten of God," and "partakers of the divine nature."

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 5:1 - Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:4 -
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

2 Peter 1:4 KJV - Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

None of this was true of Adam, even in his innocence. Neither is it true of the angels. It is true of Christ.

Redemption doesn't merely restore us to mankind's first estate, a little lower than the angels. It is much more glorious than that.

Romans 8:29 BBE - Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers:

Romans 8:29 NLT - For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

1 John 3:2 KJV -
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I think it's abudantly clear that those who were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, are predestined to salvation.

That is the obvious plan of God. And it is just as obvious that the ones that are conformed to the image of Christ are those that have freely chosen to trust in Him

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rom 8:28 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
So if God saw that man after being created, would freely choose to sin, and would freely reject Him and Christ all the days of their life, and finally die in their sins and suffer forever, and yet God created the people anyway, then it was Gods will that they go to Hell for their sins and for it to be their own fault.

That is just what I have been trying to get you to understand BF. As you said they "freely choose to sin"

God foreknows all who will reject Him and all who trust in Him but He does not determine who will do so.

That is the difference between God foreknowing the future [biblical] and God determining the future. [C/R]
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I'm a brother in Christ, but I'm yet to know when I meet the Creator of the universe, exactly what that relationship will be from that point.

We were predestined to a plan that ensures our salvation from a-z.

The difference between us is that I was presented with a choice to believe Christ. With the Gospel I was also given the consequences of my decision.
Again, that's not what the Apostles are telling us.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Well God isnt a fool, if He created a person knowing full well that person is going to hell for their sins, then He created that person for that purpose Duh

Look at what you wrote BF. The reason those people go to hell is "He created that person for that purpose Duh"

Foreknowing a person will freely sin and judging them for it is a far cry from judging them for something they had, by God, been determined to do.

You have also set up a contradiction in scripture.

You say God created them for that purpose but the bible say He desires all to come to repentance and be saved. It cannot be both BF.

I will stick with what the bible says and I suggest you do the same.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Well @atpollard proved me right. He just deflected.
Confused

I gave you the SCRIPTURE that defines “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent” practically:​


Ephesians 1:11 ”In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,


Romans 11:33 “Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!


Hebrews 6:17 “In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath,


Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.”


Romans 9:18 “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”


I gave you the definition of “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent” by its EFFECT:​


Nothing happens that makes God say “Oops, I didn’t mean for that to happen.”


Do you REALLY need me to post a Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition because you are too lazy to google your own dictionary definition of “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent”?​

From Merriam-Webster Dictionary (Did you know?):

Sovereign has everything to do with power. It often describes a person who has supreme power or authority, such as a king or queen. God is described as "sovereign" in a number of Bible translations. In addition to describing ones who have power, the word sovereign also often describes power: to have sovereign power is to have absolute power—that is, power that cannot be checked by anyone or anything.

The word omnipotent made its way into English through Anglo-French, but it ultimately comes from a combination of the Latin prefix omni-, meaning "all," and the word potens, meaning "potent." The omni- prefix has also given us similar words such as omniscient (meaning "all-knowing") and omnivorous (describing one that eats both plants and animals). Although omnipotent is most often used in general contexts to mean "having virtually unlimited authority or influence" (as in "an omnipotent ruler"), it was originally applied specifically to the power held by an almighty deity.

I have not deflected, you are being dishonest in this conversation.

From SCRIPTURE: HIS purpose, HIS works, HIS plan, HIS will, HIS wisdom, HIS judgement, HIS ways, HIS unchangeable purpose, HIS mercy, HIS compassion, HIS desire ... “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent” places GOD in complete control of WHATSOVER and WHOSOEVER ... or as I summarized: Nothing happens that makes God say “Oops, I didn’t mean for that to happen.”
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
You keep disagreeing with what we see in scripture but it is just your opinion.
Because you do not understand Biblical foreknowledge, you will not be arriving at truth anytime soon,
Here is some much needed help for you and others who are beguiled by this truth.

From this article;
In like manner, the word ‘know’ is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. ‘Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you’ (Matt 7:23). ‘I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine’ (John 10:14). ‘If any man love God, the same is known of Him’ (1 Cor 8:3). ‘The Lord knoweth them that are His’ (2 Tim 2:19).

Now the word ‘foreknowledge’ as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form ‘to know.’ If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that ‘foreknowledge’ is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to ‘foreknow,’ not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, ‘Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.’ If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse, it will be seen that the Apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: ‘Him [Christ] being delivered by…’

The second occurrence is in Romans 8:29,30. ‘For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called.’ Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts, but the persons themselves, that are here in view.

‘God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew’ (Rom 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in I Peter 1:2: ‘Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.’ Who are ‘elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father?’ The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the ‘strangers scattered,’ i.e., the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what Scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God ‘foreknew’ the acts of certain ones, viz., their ‘repenting and believing,’ and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is: None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s foreknowledge. The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us ‘hold fast the form of sound words’ (2 Tim 1:13).
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Because you do not understand Biblical foreknowledge, you will not be arriving at truth anytime soon,
Here is some much needed help for you and others who are beguiled by this truth.

From this article;
In like manner, the word ‘know’ is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. ‘Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you’ (Matt 7:23). ‘I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine’ (John 10:14). ‘If any man love God, the same is known of Him’ (1 Cor 8:3). ‘The Lord knoweth them that are His’ (2 Tim 2:19).

Now the word ‘foreknowledge’ as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form ‘to know.’ If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that ‘foreknowledge’ is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to ‘foreknow,’ not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, ‘Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.’ If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse, it will be seen that the Apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: ‘Him [Christ] being delivered by…’

The second occurrence is in Romans 8:29,30. ‘For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called.’ Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts, but the persons themselves, that are here in view.

‘God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew’ (Rom 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in I Peter 1:2: ‘Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.’ Who are ‘elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father?’ The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the ‘strangers scattered,’ i.e., the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what Scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God ‘foreknew’ the acts of certain ones, viz., their ‘repenting and believing,’ and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is: None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s foreknowledge. The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us ‘hold fast the form of sound words’ (2 Tim 1:13).

Are you telling me that you do not know what "foreknowledge" means?

Here is a simple why to understand it Fore as in "before" and Knowledge "to know about something"

To know about something before it occurs.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Confused

I gave you the SCRIPTURE that defines “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent” practically:​


Ephesians 1:11 ”In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,


Romans 11:33 “Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!


Hebrews 6:17 “In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath,


Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.”


Romans 9:18 “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”


I gave you the definition of “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent” by its EFFECT:​


Nothing happens that makes God say “Oops, I didn’t mean for that to happen.”


Do you REALLY need me to post a Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition because you are too lazy to google your own dictionary definition of “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent”?​

From Merriam-Webster Dictionary (Did you know?):

Sovereign has everything to do with power. It often describes a person who has supreme power or authority, such as a king or queen. God is described as "sovereign" in a number of Bible translations. In addition to describing ones who have power, the word sovereign also often describes power: to have sovereign power is to have absolute power—that is, power that cannot be checked by anyone or anything.

The word omnipotent made its way into English through Anglo-French, but it ultimately comes from a combination of the Latin prefix omni-, meaning "all," and the word potens, meaning "potent." The omni- prefix has also given us similar words such as omniscient (meaning "all-knowing") and omnivorous (describing one that eats both plants and animals). Although omnipotent is most often used in general contexts to mean "having virtually unlimited authority or influence" (as in "an omnipotent ruler"), it was originally applied specifically to the power held by an almighty deity.

I have not deflected, you are being dishonest in this conversation.

From SCRIPTURE: HIS purpose, HIS works, HIS plan, HIS will, HIS wisdom, HIS judgement, HIS ways, HIS unchangeable purpose, HIS mercy, HIS compassion, HIS desire ... “Sovereign” and “Omnipotent” places GOD in complete control of WHATSOVER and WHOSOEVER ... or as I summarized: Nothing happens that makes God say “Oops, I didn’t mean for that to happen.”

To say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.
To say that He can't is also to deny His Omnipotence.

God is no less sovereign in a world where he chooses to grant his creatures agency/free will than he is in a world where he determines everything.

If God chooses to create people who are free and to accomplish his purposes through their undetermined choices, it is his sovereign right to do so. A.W. Tozer
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
To say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.
To say that He can't is also to deny His Omnipotence.

God is no less sovereign in a world where he chooses to grant his creatures agency/free will than he is in a world where he determines everything.

If God chooses to create people who are free and to accomplish his purposes through their undetermined choices, it is his sovereign right to do so. A.W. Tozer
You ignored where I denied HARD DETERMINISM as a belief that I embrace, making this irrelevant to me.

[I am a Compatibalist ... because that is what Scripture teaches ... both FREE WILL to choose and GOD'S SOVEREIGN CONTROL of all things ... Just like the story of Joseph (Gen 50:20). However, I have grown accustomed to your "waiting to talk" rather than "bothering to listen", so it comes as no surprise to me that you ignore my actual beliefs to counter your 'strawman'.]
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Silverhair

That is just what I have been trying to get you to understand BF. As you said they "freely choose to sin"

As God created them to do. Thats why they are responsible for their sin.

God foreknows all who will reject Him and all who trust in Him but He does not determine who will do so.

Who determined to create them so they could freely choose to disobey, and not obey Him and wind up in Hell for eternity.

That is the difference between God foreknowing the future [biblical] and God determining the future. [C/R]

Who determined to give them being for them to destroy themselves ? Could they have done it of God had not determined to create them to do it ? Yes or No
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
You ignored where I denied HARD DETERMINISM as a belief that I embrace, making this irrelevant to me.

[I am a Compatibalist ... because that is what Scripture teaches ... both FREE WILL to choose and GOD'S SOVEREIGN CONTROL of all things ... Just like the story of Joseph (Gen 50:20). However, I have grown accustomed to your "waiting to talk" rather than "bothering to listen", so it comes as no surprise to me that you ignore my actual beliefs to counter your 'strawman'.]

Yes God is sovereign and He has chosen to give man an actual will. Not the sudo free will of compatibilism.

Compatibilism, is the view that free will and determinism are compatible. It argues that even if all events are causally determined, we can still have free will and be morally responsible for our actions.

Now how one can call a determined action a free action is rather a large leap in logic.

God is sovereign and man has a free will which is biblical. God determining an action and calling it free is not.

Oh, I do read what you have posted but I do not have to agree with what you have posted.


Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (Note: compatibilism denies that the will is free to choose otherwise, that is, free from the bondage of the corruption nature,for the unregenerate, and denies that the will is free from God's eternal decreee.)


Christ dwells within us not for the purpose of sinking our being into His being, nor of substituting Himself for us as the agent in our activities; much less of seizing our wills and operating them for us in contradiction to our own immanent mind; but to operate directly upon us, to make us good, that our works, freely done by us, may under His continual leading, be good also.
B.B. Warfield
https://www.monergism DOT com/topics/free-will/compatibilism
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
That is the obvious plan of God. And it is just as obvious that the ones that are conformed to the image of Christ are those that have freely chosen to trust in Him

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rom 8:28 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
All those verses pertain to the elect
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Heigh, ho, Silver!

Now is that what it says?
We know that the elect were chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-5. and nobody loves God by nature, we hate Him, a heart that loves God comes from spiritual circumcision which is the new birth
 
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