In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?

Dave... said:

I have a few videos for you Greek scholars if you get bored. Tell me what you think. Source and content. One is Romans 1:17, and the other is Galatian 3:22. both about 12 minutes long.

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This might be a case of an academic trying to be too clever. I find his ultimate argument turgid, although I would allow his first point as valid: πῐ́στῐς should be allowed to refer either to the act of believing, or to the referent of the belief. Context will determine which of these two nuances is inferred; and here I find both to be inferred. But I find some of his reasoning to be perverse:

At 9:00 ff., he says "The righteousness of God is revealed from this faith."
At 9:40 ff., he says "A very similar function is given to the faith here. It is the thing that reveals God's righteousness, without which no-one can become righteous."
At 10:04 "Just as the power of God for salvation is revealed in the gospel, so the righteousness of God from the faith."


My first point is that "ἐκ πῐ́στῐς" in Rom 1:17 doesn't lend itself to the conclusion that "faith is the thing that reveals God's righteousness."

Who is the gospel / righteousness of God" revealed to? It is revealed to those with faith, the adherents of the gospel and appropriators of its power.

Rom 1:17 must be taken in conjunction with Rom 1:16. By Rom 1:17, "In 'it' the righteousness of God is revealed," grammatically refers back to Rom 1:16 where 'it' infers the gospel. It is the gospel which is "the power of God." The righteousness of God is revealed by the gospel, not 'from the faith'.

In Eph 2:8 we learn (the grace of) the gospel is appropriated "through (διὰ) faith."


So my second point concerns the prepositions in Rom 1:17. ἐκ means "out of", εἰς means "into / unto." The idea seems to be that of an appropriator of the gospel's power & righteousness progressing from a little faith to a greater faith. Different nuances to πῐ́στῐς (confidence / trust-->belief / persuasion) and allusions by Christ to "measures of faith" suggest a little-->great interpretation, as personal righteousness increases in line with faith.

Alternately, different referents to πῐ́στῐς (Moses --> Christ) suggest another equally valid interpretation. In the end, I think both coalesce in the sense it was God's purpose to increase faith by sending his Son.

cjab said:

This might be a case of an academic trying to be too clever.

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Hey cjab

I hear you. I allowed for that. He seems to know a lot about the languages, but still, understanding Scripture is ultimately from the Holy Spirit and does require a theologians process of interpretation, even in the original languages. He kind of reminds me of a poor mans Kenneth Wuest. A better translator than a theologian. Not that I had a problem with Wuest as a theologian. I always appreciated his stuff, but never relied heavily on him as a theologian.

I learned a long time ago that the Greek is no silver bullet that could answer all the theological questions. In reality, it's just a tool to help the theologian in us, not something to replace it. Even in the original languages, understanding context is necessary to properly interpret words. Word studies, as someone noted to me recently, can cause just as many problems as they solve, because there's no context to interpret the words properly. In short, sound hermeneutics is needed in the original languages also.

Dave

Dave G said:

Remember, I also hold to a person being born again apart from us doing anything to get that way.
To be more specific, I believe that a person's new birth and their subsequent indwelling ( after Pentecost ) are closely associated...

First the new birth, then the belief of God's word, then the Spirit seals us unto the day of our bodily redemption.

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Hey Dave

But the new birth is what gives us the life, right? You can't have life without the new birth, and you can't have the new birth, without also having the life. Do you agree?

If yes, then I would suggest that we believe so that we can have the Holy Spirit placed into us. Which also places us into Christ and His death and resurrection, born again. That's the life. The Gospel is believe and be saved. Believe and have life. We are made alive in Christ. That's actually one of the the points of the thread. That the faith from that life, Spirit empowered, comes as a result of believing before we receive that indwelling and are born again. There's a distinction between the initial, and the ongoing. The life always results from believing.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Also see John 11:25, 20:31)

Dave

Dave... said:

Hey Van

I see it a bit differently. We are placed into Christ Jesus when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Abraham, like all OT believers, died having not received those promises (Hebrews 11:13). What promises? One was to be born again, which required the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (See Ezekiel 36:26-27, John 7:38-39, John 14:16-20, 25-26, 15:26, John 16:12-16) That promise began to be realized at Pentecost. After the transition, that is everyone who the promises were made to and owed were made whole, the transition was over. We call Pentecost the birth of the Church because those were the first to be placed into Christ, the Church. I believe that this may be why Paul wrote in Romans that we (believers of that time), were the first fruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23).

Abraham was credited with [Jesus'] righteousness, the righteousness of God, in the same way that the believers in John 1:12-13 were given the right to become children of God, born again. Those promises, rights were realized at Pentecost, only after the Holy Spirit was given, which had to wait for Jesus to first be glorified. After Jesus was glorified, all the ingredients that save us, both positionally (legally, the Law), and practically (born again), were now reality, thus the agent of that placing into, or baptism, the Holy Spirit was given. When we are placed "In Christ" by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are also placed into his death, and raised up with Him. This Spirit baptism, or placing into Christ, simultaneously, spiritually baptized us into His death, and then spiritually raised us up with Him, thus we are crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20), and raised up with Him (Eph. 2:6). That's born again. Also resulting from this spiritual union from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are imputed with the righteousness of God, the righteousness that Abraham was credited [imputed] with, but had to wait for (Romans 3:25-26). And the atonement, which can only apply after the cross. All these OT believers in Hebrews died having not received these promises. They did, however, receive them when Jesus descended for three days and preached to the spirits. After Jesus was raised from the dead, with His ascension, He took Paradise with Him to the third heaven to be in the Presence and live with the Father.

In short (too late, I know), Abraham was credited with righteousness because the righteousness that he was credited was still not yet established, that is Jesus fulfilling God's Law as fully man (on our behalf), and fully God (which made it possible). That, and the atonement, was part of what was being waited upon and is what was meant when the Bible said that Jesus needed to be glorified ("it is finished"). Which then gave all the ingredients needed to save us, so the immersion into Christ with the Holy Spirit, the placing into Christ with the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, now had the death and resurrection for us to also be placed into and born again, the death on the cross for atonement, and the righteousness of God established to impute as a result of that spiritual union. The ingredients.

Romans 4 elaborates. this really say it all quite clearly.

Romans 4:22-25, 5:1-2 And therefore "it was accounted to him [Abraham] for righteousness." Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand[/B], and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Abraham was imputed with righteousness, just as we are, but He had to wait in Hades, or Sheol, until these promises could be fulfilled.

Dave

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1) We are not placed into Christ when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are transferred into Christ, then undergo the washing of regeneration, causing us to be born anew, and only then are we sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

2) The indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not precede the washing of regeneration (being born anew). None of the verses listed support your claim! For example John 7:39 clearly says after the person believed (past tense) into Christ, the person then (present tense) would receive the Spirit.

3) Please acknowledge that your posted claims are NOT reflected in your cited verses.

4) Please acknowledge God credits the faith of individuals as the basis for transferring them into Christ. A simple statement on this issue would be helpful.

Dave... said:

But the new birth is what gives us the life, right?

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Yes, it is what makes someone who naturally hates God ( Romans 1, Romans 3, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 etc ) into a new creature.
It's about spiritual life and having a heart-to-heart relationship with God..

Dave... said:

You can't have life without the new birth, and you can't have the new birth, without also having the life.

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I agree.

Dave... said:

If yes, then I would suggest that we believe so that we can have the Holy Spirit placed into us.

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My disagreement with you on this point, is that I see the Scriptures saying that the new birth is not a product of our own efforts, but of God's efforts in and through a person.

This means that being born again is not dependent upon bloodline, upon our will, or upon the will of another person ( John 1:13 ).
It's dependent upon a God who works when He wants to...not when we want Him to ( John 3 ).

Dave... said:

The Gospel is believe and be saved. Believe and have life.

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The Gospel is believed by those that are saved...the Lord is assuring those that have already believed that they have been made new creatures in Christ, and been made alive with Him.
Do you see the difference?

It's not an "offer"...
It's a promise given to those that have believed, not to those that will never believe.

My friend, there's also much more to what the Lord has to say about who He loves and why He loves them, than John 3:16.
Please see the Psalms ( Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, etc. ) for example, regarding who He loves and who He hates.


That being said, I wish you well in your studies, and God's blessings upon both you and all who read this.

Dave... said:

In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?

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Like you say, "In the context" has to be examined in each different application of whichever word you are considering, to determine the various nuances that may be expressed in each case, by the way they are used (in context, etc.).

I put this article Attached in a file below, or it can be found at: How do faith and belief differ?

It covers some territory and puts various usages of 'faith' and 'believe' in organized categories,
such as:

1. Overview of the Terms.
2. Scriptural Foundations.
3. Distinction in Christian Teaching.
4. Practical Biblical Examples.
5. Responses to Common Questions.
6. Archaeological and Historical Corroborations.
7. Applying the Distinction in Daily Life.
8. Concluding Observations;

"Belief and faith are closely related but distinct. Belief is the necessary intellectual foundation-accepting fundamental truths about God’s existence, Christ’s resurrection, and the reliability of Scripture. Faith builds upon belief, forging a relationship with God that results in trust, obedience, and life transformation.

"According to the biblical record, faith and belief together produce spiritual substance, hope, and a lived response to God’s revealed truths. “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith” (2 Corinthians 13:5) is an invitation to move beyond intellectual assent and into a vibrant, enduring trust. This harmony of mind and heart brings the assurance, joy, and purpose promised throughout Scripture."

While that is their best shot at a conclusion to differentiate the two, first, we do know that 'faith' and 'believe' can be and are used interchangeably in many cases; I personally try to talk about the word 'believe' having been used to describe the fact that the devils believe and tremble, as you know, and then tell the story about the guy who had a wheelbarrel full of rocks.

This fellow takes that wheelbarrow full of rocks and balances it, walking on a rope stretched out over a huge waterfall and back again.

One onlooker asks another, "can you believe that?"

The second guy answers, "of course I believe it. We just sit here and watched him do it".

Then the first guy tells him, "if you believe so much in what you just saw him do, now you get him to take out all the rocks, and you get in the wheelbarrel, and let him walk you across the river over the waterfall and back".

He gets a "no", for a reply from the second guy, so the first guy tells him, "so, you 'believe' what we just saw him do, but you don't 'trust' him."

That story introduces another word, 'trust' to the equation, but it works out really well to illustate that the kind of 'belief' that the devils have is very different from the times when 'believe' is used and actually does sometimes mean 'trust'.

'Trust' in the story, makes 'believe' to have a usage which refers to a mere 'observational', impersonal 'belief', when for example, our 'belief' that comes to us in salvation is entirely and unarguably something we 'believe' because we have experienced it ourselves personally.

Then, 'believe' is sometimes used more akin in meaning to the word 'faith', when 'believe' also means 'trust', just like 'faith' in some instances.

So, 'believe', faith', and 'trust' are sometimes synonymous and yet are as different as 'believing' you see someone drinking a pop (you assume) and then comparing that observation you have and 'believe' took place to when you come to 'believing' that it is actually pop they were drinking, after you personally experience drinking some of it yourself.

You FIRST, by observation, 'believed' it was pop, but SECONDLY, after you drank some personally, you "really believed" it was actually pop, for certain.

So, you have 'believing' being used to indicate
"IT LOOKS LIKE IT" COMPARED TO "I UNMISTAKENLY KNOW FOR SURE, NO DOUBT".

Christforums said:

Belief and faith can be differentiated by the amount of conviction whether or not intellectual.

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There it is.

These are fine statements, too, regardless of how it is said, from
"Evangelism 101: Laying the Foundation" by Matt Waymeyer;

"Have you ever seen a camel walk through the eye of a needle? Of course not. That would be impossible. And that is precisely why Jesus told his disciples it would be "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:25). He wanted them to understand it was impossible.

"Recognizing the implications of Jesus’ startling statement, the disciples responded with the obvious question: "Then who can be saved?" (Luke 18:26) This, of course, was an appropriate inquiry. If it is impossible for even a rich man to be saved, then who can be saved? It would seem that no one can. But listen instead the reply that Jesus gave to the disciples: "The things impossible with men are possible with God" (Luke 18:27).

"In this verse, Jesus revealed two elementary truths about salvation: (1) It is impossible with man, and yet (2) it is possible with God. The first half of this equation was covered in chapter one—man is not able to do anything to save himself. But what did Jesus mean in saying that salvation was possible with God? How can a man be saved?

"The key to answering this question is simple, yet profound: Although man is inherently unable to respond to the gospel (impossible with man), God is able to open his heart to respond (possible with God). In Acts 16, Paul was preaching to a number of women in Philippi.

"As Paul preached that the women should repent of their sins and believe in Christ, a woman named Lydia was listening. Because of her spiritually depraved condition, however, Lydia was inherently unable to respond to Paul’s message. And yet we know from verse 14 that she did respond. How did this happen? How was she saved?

"The answer to this question is that "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14). God intervened and demonstrated that what was impossible with her was possible with Him. When a person repents and believes in Christ, it is because God has opened his or her heart to respond to the gospel.

"What is impossible with man is possible with God. This same pattern can be seen clearly in Jesus’ teaching: "No one can come to me [impossible with man], unless the Father who sent me draws him [possible with God]; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44). In this verse Jesus teaches that although no man is able to come to Christ, God the Father is able to draw men to Christ and does so when he calls them unto salvation. This is commonly known as effectual calling.

"For this reason, Scripture teaches that faith and repentance are gifts from God. When an unbeliever repents of his sins and believes in Christ, it is not the fruit of his inherent ability to repent and believe but rather the result of God opening his heart and granting him repentance (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25) and faith (Acts 13:48; 18:27; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 1:29; 2 Pet. 1:1).

"Therefore, repentance and faith are not works that man performs in order to earn his salvation—they are the change of heart brought about by God Himself. Salvation is by grace from start to finish".

And that is all, whether we call it 'belief', 'faith', or 'trust', etc.

Christforums said:

Yes, if you believe the scriptures then the object of faith is believed in trust and confidence in the object of our faith, that is, G-d.

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I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with each statement you made.

In particular, this is a rare emphasis you discerned when Abraham "believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for Righteousness." is after Abraham had been convicted of his sins through the word when in Genesis 15:1 it says, "after these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram" where he learned that it is God Who "JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY". Then, as we know from the New Testament, in Galatians 3:8, "...the scripture, foreseeing that God would Justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed".

So, Abraham learned he was "ungodly" and was preached the Old, Old Story of the gospel of his Savior and was saved. Abraham knew of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and then believed, and he had faith IN THE OBJECT OF HIS FAITH, JESUS CHRIST, WHERE IT SAYS ABRAHAM "believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for Righteousness".

Dave... said:

Hey cjab

I hear you. I allowed for that. He seems to know a lot about the languages, but still, understanding Scripture is ultimately from the Holy Spirit and does require a theologians process of interpretation, even in the original languages. He kind of reminds me of a poor mans Kenneth Wuest. A better translator than a theologian. Not that I had a problem with Wuest as a theologian. I always appreciated his stuff, but never relied heavily on him as a theologian.

I learned a long time ago that the Greek is no silver bullet that could answer all the theological questions. In reality, it's just a tool to help the theologian in us, not something to replace it. Even in the original languages, understanding context is necessary to properly interpret words. Word studies, as someone noted to me recently, can cause just as many problems as they solve, because there's no context to interpret the words properly. In short, sound hermeneutics is needed in the original languages also.

Dave

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Good points. I think his key mistake is not to see that "from (out of faith) unto faith" must be taken an indivisible phrase, as most commentators see it. The implied comma should go after ἀποκαλύπτεται (is revealed), to give "is revealed, from faith to faith," and not interposed after "from faith" as he would have it, which gives the wrong sense. Also, perhaps, he seems to not directly connect the "righteousness of God" to the faith of believers: I think they are different ways of referring to the same essential concept, one from the direction of God's origination, the other from the direction of man's response.

That the "righteousness of God" applies to believers comes from ".....made the righteousness of God" in 2 Cor 5:21.

So I see it that Rom 1:17 effectively means, "the righteousness of God manifested in (the faith of) believers," from faith to faith.

In the parallel passage in Rom 3:21,22 which interprets Rom 1:17, Paul says "The righteousness of God by (διὰ) faith....." which corresponds to Eph 1:8.

Van said:

1) We are not placed into Christ when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are transferred into Christ, then undergo the washing of regeneration, causing us to be born anew, and only then are we sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

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Without the Spirit, we have no life, we are not born again. [ word or message] = added for clarity.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized [placed into] into one body [Jesus]--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness [That's born again]. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give *life* to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1 John 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

Van said:

2) The indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not precede the washing of regeneration (being born anew). None of the verses listed support your claim! For example John 7:39 clearly says after the person believed (past tense) into Christ, the person then (present tense) would receive the Spirit.

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Van, you got that from this?

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."[that's born again] But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Van said:

3) Please acknowledge that your posted claims are NOT reflected in your cited verses.

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I believe that they are.

Van said:

4) Please acknowledge God credits the faith of individuals as the basis for transferring them into Christ. A simple statement on this issue would be helpful.

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We went over this already.

Dave

Dave G said:

Yes, it is what makes someone who naturally hates God ( Romans 1, Romans 3, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 etc ) into a new creature.
It's about spiritual life and having a heart-to-heart relationship with God..

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Hey Dave.

As I have shown, the new life begins by being born again and is always the result of trusting in Christ. When we come to Jesus with a genuine faith, in response, Jesus places His Spirit in us, the Holy Spirit. That's why the Gospel message is believe and be saved. That makes us one with Him and complete in Him, born again and justified. The faith that is a gift from God, contrasted with the flesh, the life, begins with that indwelling. To be saved means to be delivered. What are we saved/delivered from? The power of sin, and the penalty of sin. You are disregarding clear Scripture for a philosophy that has already been proven wrong. We have many things to be thankful for with regards to the reformed movement, but the idea of being born again before faith is not one of them. Many of the original big names in reformed theology didn't even believe that. It's only recently that it's beginning to take root with the masses in reformed theology. It's a shame. Bad icing, good cake.

Dave G said:

My disagreement with you on this point, is that I see the Scriptures saying that the new birth is not a product of our own efforts, but of God's efforts in and through a person.

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When we are placed into Christ, the Spirit does everything, even makes us born again. Thus it is from the Spirit, not the flesh. And it is a gift of God. Being perfected below includes being born again. In fact, the life begins with being born again. All a result of faith, in fact, it is by faith that we enter into that grace (Romans 5:1, Ephes. 2:8).

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Here's what happens when we receive the Holy Spirit, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This also, explains the same thing.

Colossians 2:11-14 In Him [ <--- 1Cor.12:13 ] you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Dave G said:

This means that being born again is not dependent upon bloodline, upon our will, or upon the will of another person ( John 1:13 ).
It's dependent upon a God who works when He wants to...not when we want Him to ( John 3 ).

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That's a false premise. I acknowledge that the life is from the Spirit and is not from the flesh, but that life begins with the indwelling, as Scripture clearly shows us. That's a big problem for your understanding of Scripture. And John 1:13, we must also acknowledge that they believed first (verse 12). Not after, but before they were given the right to become sons of God, born again. That born again part had to wait until Christ was lifted up anyways. Read carefully...

John 3:13-16 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [ <--- points back to Jesus being lifted up ----> ] that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Believe, have eternal life. Now that's the Gospel. What do you preach?

Dave... said:

Without the Spirit, we have no life, we are not born again. [

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It is pointless to continue . You post a verse that says we were put in Christ, then drink of one Spirit, while saying the verse supports being indwelt before being placed in Christ. And for another, you claim we are indwelt with the spirit before we are put in Christ and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. There is just no point...

Alan Dale Gross said:

."For this reason, Scripture teaches that faith and repentance are gifts from God. When an unbeliever repents of his sins and believes in Christ, it is not the fruit of his inherent ability to repent and believe but rather the result of God opening his heart and granting him repentance (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25) and faith (Acts 13:48; 18:27; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 1:29; 2 Pet. 1:1).

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Hey Alan

This is definitely a point of contention. Herein is where one of the points of contention. When does that life begin? I think the Bible is clear that it begins with the indwelling, because that's what makes us one with Jesus, born again [the life] and justified. But that's a problem for the TULIP system. Total depravity is setting aside the fact that it's not as total as they claim, and much of the Scripture used to defend it is pointing to righteous standards of the Law, not mans ability. In other words, none of us can do anything 'good' from the flesh by righteous standards. that's why anything good from us the fruit of the Spirit. Everyone believes that, at least they should.

Which brings us to the next point of contention. Can the initial faith, the one apparently from the flesh, but possibly from God in some other way than being born again, saved us? Does it need to be declared good by righteous standards to be authentic? As I have already pointed out, We can desire what is good from the flesh, we just can't do anything good by righteous standards from the flesh. But what is an initial faith if not just a desire? To save the system todays Calvinists stretch the context of that life out to begin before the initial faith, and use Scripture about the ongoing faith to prove that the initial faith can only come as a result of being born again. I disagree, and Scripture does too.

Dave

Van said:

You post a verse that says we were put in Christ, then drink of one Spirit,

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Yes.

Van said:

while saying the verse supports being indwelt before being placed in Christ.

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No. Being indwelt is what makes us "in Christ" We call it the "placing into [Christ]" with the Holy Spirit, otherwise known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit. When we are placed into Christ [receive the Holy Spirit indwelling as a result of faith], we are also placed into His death (Gal. 2:20), we die with Him, and placed into His resurrection (Eph 2:6), raised up with Him. That's born again. All as a result of first believing/trusting.

Van said:

And for another, you claim we are indwelt with the spirit before we are put in Christ and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. There is just no point...

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The indwelling is the sealing.

Dave

Dave... said:

The indwelling is the sealing.

Dave

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We were sealed in Christ with the Spirit AFTER we were transferred into Christ and regenerated, and made alive.

cjab said:

Good points. I think his key mistake is not to see that "from (out of faith) unto faith" must be taken an indivisible phrase, as most commentators see it. The implied comma should go after ἀποκαλύπτεται (is revealed), to give "is revealed, from faith to faith," and not interposed after "from faith" as he would have it, which gives the wrong sense. Also, perhaps, he seems to not directly connect the "righteousness of God" to the faith of believers: I think they are different ways of referring to the same essential concept, one from the direction of God's origination, the other from the direction of man's response.

That the "righteousness of God" applies to believers comes from ".....made the righteousness of God" in 2 Cor 5:21.

So I see it that Rom 1:17 effectively means, "the righteousness of God manifested in (the faith of) believers," from faith to faith.

In the parallel passage in Rom 3:21,22 which interprets Rom 1:17, Paul says "The righteousness of God by (διὰ) faith....." which corresponds to Eph 1:8.

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This is really for everybody.

I found something interesting for you to read, if you like. Not the whole thing, but just a couple of posters. One post each. I give the poster Joseph kudos for making this connection. He's basically using the Paul vs. James debate to make the distinction between the initial faith and the ongoing faith. This is very obvious and I don't know why I didn't make that connection myself. Maybe I'm missing something, but, if Paul and James are speaking of the same thing, then they are contradicting each other. But there is a distinction to be made, and it lays with the context of each, and plays right into this topic. Paul, is usually in the context of justification, which speaks of our initial faith, or trusting believing, while James, is speaking of the evidences of one living by the Spirit, the ongoing faith, the life.

This gets into the original languages also, so if you do read it tell me what you think. Read Joseph, and Scott just before him also. I should quote this, it's that good. I think.


Dave

Van said:

We were sealed in Christ with the Spirit AFTER we were transferred into Christ and regenerated, and made alive.

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Hey Van

Notice that the Holy Spirit here is also called the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from

Dave

Dave... said:

Notice that the Holy Spirit here is also called the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from

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Now you change the subject. I see no reason for your nonsense posts.

The issue is not every born anew Christ has been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, called with several different names in scripture. It is the sequence. First we hear the gospel, God's revelation. Next, if we are open to God's word, our heart has not been hardened, we either reject it or accept it fully or partially or in a way limited by our understanding. Next, God alone evaluates our faith, and if He credits our faith as righteousness, then He alone, transfers us into Christ. This transfer is also called, baptized into Christ, called into His kingdom, given to Christ and believed into Him. Once in Christ, the person undergoes the washing of regeneration, thus made alive together with Christ, and then after being so established in Christ, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

Dave... said:

This is really for everybody.

I found something interesting for you to read, if you like. Not the whole thing, but just a couple of posters. One post each. I give the poster Joseph kudos for making this connection. He's basically using the Paul vs. James debate to make the distinction between the initial faith and the ongoing faith. This is very obvious and I don't know why I didn't make that connection myself. Maybe I'm missing something, but, if Paul and James are speaking of the same thing, then they are contradicting each other. But there is a distinction to be made, and it lays with the context of each, and plays right into this topic. Paul, is usually in the context of justification, which speaks of our initial faith, or trusting believing, while James, is speaking of the evidences of one living by the Spirit, the ongoing faith, the life.

This gets into the original languages also, so if you do read it tell me what you think. Read Joseph, and Scott just before him also. I should quote this, it's that good. I think.

Is Romans 1:17 ambiguous?

ESV: 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” The NIV and KJV read similarly. I have always understood the

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

Dave

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Hab 2:4

Paul corrects LXX Hab 2:4 by removing μου (my), so he regards the Hebrew as authoritative over the LXX. As for ἐκ πίστεως, I refer to LSJ for the ancient Greek usage, and find sense III (origin) to be pertinent. specifically: III(6) of Cause, Instrument, or Means by which a thing is done; III(8) as periphrasis for Adv. ἐκ βίας by force. So there is nothing much between "shall live by faith" or "shall live faithfully" here.

Rom 1:17:

There seems to be an overlap betwen ἐκ and διά, and it's useful to have recourse to independent authorities here:

HELPS Word Studies (Koine NT Greek)
1537 ἐκ – properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within. 1537 /ek ("out of") is one of the most under-translated (and therefore mis-translated) Greek propositions – often being confined to the meaning "by." 1537 (ek) has a two-layered meaning ("out from and to") which makes it outcome oriented (out of the depths of the source and extending to its impact on the object).

1223 diá (a preposition) – properly, across (to the other side), back-and-forth to go all the way through [="through"].
______

Heb 2:4 gives the causative connection between justification/righteouness (source in faith) and living (outcome of faith).

Rom 1:17 elaborates on Heb 2:4 contextual to the gospel. Righteousness of God/justification by faith has its outcome in eternal life (through faith), so ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν == διὰ πίστεως. I think the idea of a logical progression of faith (both of faith itself and the referent of faith) also holds from Rom 6:22 etc, both in respect of faith itself: righteousness/Justification -> persistence in faith -> eternal life; and as to the referent of faith: "shall live by faith in God" (in the OT) -> "shall inherit eternal life through faith in Christ" (in the NT).

Van said:

Now you change the subject. I see no reason for your nonsense posts.

The issue is not every born anew Christ has been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, called with several different names in scripture. It is the sequence. First we hear the gospel, God's revelation. Next, if we are open to God's word, our heart has not been hardened, we either reject it or accept it fully or partially or in a way limited by our understanding. Next, God alone evaluates our faith, and if He credits our faith as righteousness, then He alone, transfers us into Christ. This transfer is also called, baptized into Christ, called into His kingdom, given to Christ and believed into Him. Once in Christ, the person undergoes the washing of regeneration, thus made alive together with Christ, and then after being so established in Christ, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

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Van, whose righteousness is being credited?

Dave

Dave... said:

Total depravity is setting aside the fact that it's not as total as they claim

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For Total Depravity to be said to not be total, or as the Total Depravity of men is placed on display for all to see, when they try to suggest 'Total Depravity is Not Total Inability', are both downright pure blasphemy, as much as they are both illiterate.

Dave... said:

much of the Scripture used to defend it is pointing to righteous standards of the Law, not mans ability.

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BREAKING THE SCRIPTURES/LAW is what Dines Man's Inability for what it is, Total.

If you are trying to make a circle by drawing a curved line around the numbers on a clock and there is a gap left between 11 and 12, then that is not a circle, because it is incomplete.

At the very least, lost man must be said to be incomplete and fallen short of the Glory of God.
If you try to throw a rock from New York City to London, England, it's going to fall short, too.

We fall short of being Absolute Perfect Keepers of The Ten Commandments from our conception.
There is none good, in The Old Testament or New Testament, to this day.

Dave... said:

In other words, none of us can do anything 'good' from the flesh by righteous standards.

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Ah, yeah, that happens to be a Statement of Historical Fact.

The Ten Commandments and anything Jesus Commanded are all a part of The Universal Moral Law of GOD, OF WHICH EVERY INDIVIDUAL NATURALLY BORN CHILD OF ADAM IS.

Dave... said:

that's why anything good from us the fruit of the Spirit.

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RIGHT.......

Dave... said:

Everyone believes that, at least they should.

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O.K.

Dave... said:

Can the initial faith, the one apparently from the flesh, but possibly from God in some other way than being born again, saved us?

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IF YOU ARE INTERESTED AND ABLE TO LEARN WHAT HAPPENS DURING THE EXPERIENCE OF SALVATION, NOW IS THE TIME (OR ONE DIVINELY APPOINTED TIME, TO HAVE BEEN PRECEEDED BY OTHER ACCURATE TRUTHS which OTHERS HAVE BROUGHT YOU, WHICH WILL BE FOLLOWED BY STILL OTHERS, INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST, WHO WILL LEAD YOU, IF IT IS HIS PLEASURE.

"Can the initial faith, the one apparently from the flesh..."

The Spiritual Ability of this faith we have must Originate in our lose soul, in the New Spiritual Birth.

"...but possibly from God in some other way"

What Originates from God is the New Divine Nature which Enables us to Act Spiritually to receive everything God Promised as His Gift of the Now Indwelling Holy Spirit. That means that with that Divine Nature now Spiritually being in our soul, we are Spiritually Able to see 'THE THINGS OF GOD', SUCH AS THE BIBLE, to no longer be foolishness, and that it is a good idea to exercise the repentence (God has Granted them) of breaking God's Laws that has been Given to us, by Pure Grace, along with faith, 'etc.'

Dave... said:

Does it need to be declared good by righteous standards to be authentic?

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Yes. Nothing 'good' done without the Leadership and Following of Spiritually Inspired Faith, is sin.

Dave... said:

As I have already pointed out, We can desire what is good from the flesh, we just can't do anything good by righteous standards from the flesh.

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Nope. Although, those 'desires' are still going to be of the flesh and not the kind of Spiriual Desires a child of God will have, like a desire to exault Jesus, when a lost soul's inward desire is hatred of all of the things of God.

Dave... said:

But what is an initial faith if not just a desire?

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1st.) The Holy Spirit Orchestrates the life and circumstances of the lost soul
to be PLACED UNDER THE TEACHING OF THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD.

2.) The lost soul hears the Message to Repent of their sins against God
and to believe in and fully trust and have faith in The Gospel, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, where Jesus would now take the Oversight in the Eternal Life and Protection.

3.) In the Providence of God, The Triune Godhead has Forknown, Predestinated
and now Grants the lost soul, below their level of Consciousness, IN THE REALM OF THE SPIRIT,
that is when God Effectually Calls that soul, by the Gospel of His Son, TO COME TO JESUS.

4.) At seemingly the same time, but logically first, The Holy Spirit has Entered their lost soul and Given them New Eternal Life and Nature, which has the Spiritual Capability to Repent and Believe.

5.) Then, what does that (now saved) soul do, NOW THAT HE CAN NOW SPIRITUALLY RECEIVE IT AS BEING TRUE? They TAKE THE BLESSING OF THE SPIRIT BY THE ETERNALLY GIVING GRACE OF GOD AND;

5a.) REPENT OF THEIR SIN, WHEN SIN WAS ALL THEY WERE CAPABLE OF DOING, PREVIOUSLY,

5b.) Believe in the Gospel and have Faith Jesus
died, was buried, and rose again from the dead, FOR THEIR SOUL, PERSONALLY.

5C.) Believe the Bible and have faith in God to live the Christian Life, by The Holy Spirit in them.

Dave... said:

To save the system todays Calvinists stretch the context of that life out to begin before the initial faith

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It absolutely does, if you really want to know what happens when God saves a soul.

Dave... said:

use Scripture about the ongoing faith to prove that the initial faith can only come as a result of being born again

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You try to use a gratuitous assersion fallacy to generally claim what "they use" to do "so and so",
and you might as well give it up now, because there is no scripture for what you are claiming, so you didn't dare to try and quote any.

Dave... said:

I disagree, and Scripture does too.

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No, Jesus knows His Bible.

"You must be born again."

How do you twist that to say, "You don't have to be born again"?

"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

"You will not come unto Me that you might have life" John 5:40.

Jesus says the lost sinners there DIDN'T HAVE LIFE,
BECAUSE LIFE IS WHAT THEY DIDN'T COME TO GET, i.e., A LIFE THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE.

AND NO LOST SINNER HAS 'LIFE', (or 'A SPARK OF DIVINITY')
WHEN ANY 'LIFE' A LOST SINNER THINKS THEY POSSESS
HAS THEIR SOUL ENTRAPPED IN THE LOST NATURE AND SPIRITUALLY BLIND STATE
OF BEING DEAD IN THEIR SINS AND TRESPASSES AGAINST GOD'S LAWS.