He decides to let one murderer go free die to him having a change of heart, is sorry, confesses, agrees to do better, yet how would that balance the scales of justice though?
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The Enemies Of The Cross of Christ:
- Thread starter Zaatar71
- Start date
My belief is that at Judgment God will have succeeded in transforming us into the image of Christ, we will have been made a new creation in Christ, we will have been refined, we will have been cleansed of all unrighteous.
God will justly condemn the wicked and justify the righteous.
I believe that what we have is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.
This does nor contradict the law (the wicked will be punished and the righteous justified) but the law is fulfilled and we are saved aoart from the law.
At Judgment, if Jesus was not punished for the sins of the "old man", the new creation who is at that point actually in the image of Christ IS himself righteous because he is made. new creation in Christ. The "old man" who you say has to have his sins punished no longer exists.
The flaw here is that the dead will be 'judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books' (Rev. 20:13-14), not according to how they may have been transformed. The only way to avoid disaster is to be found in Christ. 'For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ; cf. Heb 7:26-27] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.' Therefore God sees no sin in us because we have been clothed with Isaiah's robe of righteousness and garments of salvation.
I don't think so. God would be unjust because He would have justified the ungodly by cleansing them without any atonement. But He declares in Isaiah 65:6-7, '"Behold, it is written before Me: I will not keep silence but repay - even repay into their bosom - your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together," says the LORD.'
I have read this sentence through several times, and it does not appear to make sense "If Jesus was not punished...." then what?
However, the whole gist of your argument here is that the Lord Jesus died for nothing. He did not need to be a propitiation by His blood because, you say, God can be just by other means. I don't believe He can. If there was any way to be just and yet justify sinners, there was no reason for Christ to suffer and die.
The Father cannot declare a lost sinner to be now justify unless/until His divine Wrath is fully satisfied, and the sin debt is paid in full , as JonC theology seems to say God will save sinners by just accepting their repenting and asking to get saved, so says OK, my stored up wrath now just disappears
That is not a "flaw".
What are the works of the Spirpt that those conformed into the image of Christ has done?
These are "treasures", they are works together rewarded.
What about the wicked? Their "deeds are evil".
What about the "old man"? Again, evil but already "put to death".
You lack comprehension of my belief.
It all centers on Christ and His work of redemption.
Christ had to die under the bondage of sin and death, as one of us, to free us from its bondage.
He had to bevome a life giving spirit.
He had to be that second Adam.
Think about it for a moment. @Martin Marprelate
You believe that God took our sins (our past actions, our evil deeds we committed) and put thrm on Jesus to punish them there.
I stole a ball. God took "stole a ball" from me and put "stole a ball" on Jesus.
God then punished "stole a ball" on Jesus.
That does not change the fact that I stole the ball. I am still guilty.
So you say God took my guilt (my "having done it") and put "having done on" on Jesus and pretended Jesus did it.
Your theory does not work. It sounds logical if you say it enough times and ignore reality.
1. Sin and guilt are not material things. One cannot take an action committed and put that on another person who did not do that action. We are guilty because we did something. That is not a material thing but a fact that we did an action.
2. This does nothing to address the "old man". You do not acceot the idea that we are made new creations in Christ (you continually go back to what the "old man" did, ignoring the "old man" no longer exists at Judgment).
BUT some Calvinists (probably moat) acceot that God has predestined us to be conformed into the image of Christ.
They still have a problem. This means Christ's suffering the punishment of the "old man" had nothing to do with redemption at all. The "old man" is NOT redeemed. He dies and we are made anew.
Your view does not necessitate the cross in terms of redemption. It does not need Christ to have died at all.
It merely needs God to have redeemed us through the law and given the law what it demanded of God.
Instead, Scripture presents Jesus as bearing our sin (not God pretending that Jesus sinned but Jesus actualky coming under the bondage of our sin), suffering and dying under this bondage, raising to live having conquered this evil and freeing us from its bondage, removing the "sting" of death, and becoming a life giving Spirit.
We do not need to play pretend. God does not need to step away from reality. Simply read the Bible and consider tge possibility that what God said happened and happens may really be true.
You believe that God took our sins (our past actions, our evil deeds we committed) and put thrm on Jesus to punish them there.
I stole a ball. God took "stole a ball" from me and put "stole a ball" on Jesus.
God then punished "stole a ball" on Jesus.
That does not change the fact that I stole the ball. I am still guilty.
So you say God took my guilt (my "having done it") and put "having done on" on Jesus and pretended Jesus did it.
Your theory does not work. It sounds logical if you say it enough times and ignore reality.
1. Sin and guilt are not material things. One cannot take an action committed and put that on another person who did not do that action. We are guilty because we did something. That is not a material thing but a fact that we did an action.
2. This does nothing to address the "old man". You do not acceot the idea that we are made new creations in Christ (you continually go back to what the "old man" did, ignoring the "old man" no longer exists at Judgment).
BUT some Calvinists (probably moat) acceot that God has predestined us to be conformed into the image of Christ.
They still have a problem. This means Christ's suffering the punishment of the "old man" had nothing to do with redemption at all. The "old man" is NOT redeemed. He dies and we are made anew.
Your view does not necessitate the cross in terms of redemption. It does not need Christ to have died at all.
It merely needs God to have redeemed us through the law and given the law what it demanded of God.
Instead, Scripture presents Jesus as bearing our sin (not God pretending that Jesus sinned but Jesus actualky coming under the bondage of our sin), suffering and dying under this bondage, raising to live having conquered this evil and freeing us from its bondage, removing the "sting" of death, and becoming a life giving Spirit.
We do not need to play pretend. God does not need to step away from reality. Simply read the Bible and consider tge possibility that what God said happened and happens may really be true.
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The flaw is that you are placing all this not at the judgment, but after it. Read Rev. 20:12, which I posted earlier, again. 'The dead were judged according to what they had done.' If God can simply forgive sins without a propitiation or atoning sacrifice, then not only does Rom. 3:25-26 not belong in the Bible, but Christ doesn't belong there either!
Well, if I were one of these 'wicked' people, I would complain: "How come that Martin Marprelate did all those wicked things and yet is forgiven, while we are not?" And the devil himself would complain: "How can you just let one set of people off and then 'conform them into the image of Christ, while another set, who were no more wicked than some of the others, are sent to hell?
Well this is your opportunity to explain yourself.
This sounds rather like Penal Substitution to me. How does it differ?
This is what I want you to explain - in detail, please! Why, under your scheme, did Christ have to die? Why, if God is going to make us all new creations anyway, did Jesus have to suffer and die in the terrible way He did?. And why did He refuse the wine mixed with Myrrh (Mark 15:23)?
First of all, your likening sin to stealing a ball is not helpful in coming to the truth. Proverbs 21:24 applies. However,our problem is that it is not a theory, it's the word of God. 'All we, like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity [ball-stealing and all] of us all' (Isaiah 53:6). 'He Himself bore our sins [ball-stealing and all] in His own body on the tree' (1 Peter 2:24).
So you say, yet God has done exactly that. He has taken our sins and put them on the Lord Jesus. Your theory does not stand the scrutiny of Scripture
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Yet though we are new creations in Christ Jesus, we are still the same people (or do you think that JonC and Martin Marprelate will be obliterated?). God has to be 'Just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'
Probably all do; it's in the Bible.
Please! Read Romans 3:25-26 again. God cannot deny Himself; He must be just, and seen to be just.
The law demands that the soul that sins shall die. 'But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us' (Romans 5:8).Your mocking does you no credit. It was God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ, who came to satisfy His own justice and pay the penalty for our sins (cf. Acts 20:28). Where does the Bible talk about the Lord Jesus "coming under the bondage of our sins"? What does that even mean?
I suggest you do just that.
You are still not comprehending what I am saying.
1. God does NOT just "simply forgive".
Scripture tells us what God requires ("repentance", "turning away from wickedness", "turning to God", "a new heart", "dying to sin", having "a mind set on the Spirit").
The Bible says IF those things happen that God will forgive us. My view is that God actually majes those things happen.
2. I DID read the passage AND I agreed with it.
At Judgment we WILL be judged according to what we have done.
But at Judgment we will not be "the old man". We will be new creations in Christ. We will be in His image. Our deeds will be the works of the Spirit. God will not hold us accountable for what somebody who no longer exist did (the "old man"). We must die to sin. We must put to death the flesh (this "old man").
3. You seem to want to keep your sins, to keep that "old man" and have God justify this sin. He will not.
At Judgment if you stand before God as the "old creation" set on the flesh you WILL perish.
But of you "put to death the deeds of the flesh", if you "die to sin", if you ARE NOT the "old man" but instead have been made a new creation in Christ and are conformed to His image then you will be justified.
Yet though we are new creations in Christ Jesus, we are still the same people (or do you think that JonC and Martin Marprelate will be obliterated?). God has to be 'Just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'
Probably all do; it's in the Bible.
Please! Read Romans 3:25-26 again. God cannot deny Himself; He must be just, and seen to be just.
The law demands that the soul that sins shall die. 'But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us' (Romans 5:8).Your mocking does you no credit. It was God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ, who came to satisfy His own justice and pay the penalty for our sins (cf. Acts 20:28). Where does the Bible talk about the Lord Jesus "coming under the bondage of our sins"? What does that even mean?
I suggest you do just that.
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No, stealing is a sin. If is a violation of God's command. Why you would think otherwise is odd.
You just misapplied God's Word.
The reference is Ezekiel 18.
The passage begins with the law of Israel and God telling them that the person or soul who sins shall die, that they will not judge the son based on the father's crime. God commands them to not use a saying.
BUT half through the chapter God explains to Israel "His ways".
God tells them that He will hold them accountable for their sins - unless they repent from evil and turn to Him. God even tells them this requires a "new heart". And God says if this occurs He will forgive their sins.
But you flat out rejected that God forgives us based in this "new heart", that we are forgiven because we are made into Christ's image, made "new creations" in Christ.
Instead you insist that the "new creation" is really the "old man" who has had Christ suffered his punishment. That is completely unbiblical.
If you mean by your last sentence that repentance and faith are gifts of God, then I agree with you. But the fact is that God requires something more than repentance, the New Birth and so forth. 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission' (Heb. 9:22). I have quoted a couple of times Numbers 15:27-31. I really don't have time to write it all out again, but if people haven't read it yet, they need to do so to understand the issue. In the O.T., there had to be an offering, a propitiation, an atoning sacrifice to satisfy God's outraged justice. Now, in the New Covenant, people are called simply to repent and believe, but only because the blood has already been shed, once and for all, by the Lord Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:24-28).
Well you didn't understand it then.
But we won't, not entirely. Read Romans 7 and 1 John 1 again. We are still debtors to mercy and will be until the day we die. If we end up at the Day of Judgment as new creations, it will be because God, in His mercy, placed our sins upon the Lord Jesus and He paid the penalty for them in full.
I was made a new creation 30+ years ago when I first trusted in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). The good news is that God justifies sinners (Romans 5:6), of whom I, next to Paul, am the chief. But when I stand before the judgment seat of Christ, my hope will be in nothing else but the blood of Christ
Don't think you can frighten me with your hobgoblins! I will stand before God with my sins forgiven because God has laid them upon the Lord Jesus, and He has willingly paid the price for them in full upon the cross, looking to nothing in myself, for I shall get no help there, but 'Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.' And what was the joy set before Him? Firstly, it was the doing of God's will (Psalm 40:8), but secondly it was the becoming the firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:29; cf. Hebrews 2:11-17).
'When from the dust of death I rise
To claim my mansion in the skies,
E'en then shall this be all my plea,
Jesus hath lived, and died for me!'
If your hope is in anything in yourself, if it is anything else but in Christ and Him crucified, it is more than likely to be disappointed .
I don't think you'll find I did.
What you miss is that all the way through the Old Covenant, the various Levitical offerings were still being offered. 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.' Once again, you do not appear to know what to do with Christ crucified.
I insist on nothing of the kind as you know very well. We are justified when we repent and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. We are not made new creations when we do not believe in Christ. 'For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God.....' How? By being made new creations? No! '.....by the death of His Son....' (Romans 5:10). It is when we believe on Him - at that very moment, that we are united to Christ by faith, made into His image and become new creations. Yet, as we know, it does not mean that we become sinlessly perfect - far from it! But because we are united to Christ by faith, God credits us with His spotless righteousness. This is Luther's great exchange. He has our sins imputed to Him and suffers for them to satisfy God's justice; we have His righteousness imputed to us.
'When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upwards I look and see His face
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died,
My sinful soul is counted free;
For God the just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.'
I agree that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness
We differ, though. Where you see this as a law God had to follow, I view this as foreshadowing Christ.
We both agreed that Jesus died. We both, I hope, agree that this was so by His death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil.
Paul placed our hope in the Resurrection. This includes (obviously) Jesus dying to brea the power of the one who holds the power if death (Satan).
Scripture describes our being made into new creations much differently.
Punishing the guilty sins on Christ would not remove the guilt (even if sins could be treated as material things.
Transferring our guilt onto Christ would not recreate us (even if guilt coukd be treated as a material thing).
The Bible says we are made new creations in Christ - not by God punishing Christ.
We are conformed into His image.
This is God removing our heart of stone and giving us a new heart.
This is God removing our old spirit and giving us a new spirit.
This is God putting His Spirit in us.
This is being born of the Spirit.
God foreknew us in Christ.
He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son
The reason is that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Now, I know you probably do not believe that but check it out anyway.
All of that is in God's Word.
What is not in God's Word is your theory.
The bottom line is I believe what God has given us, "what is written", is more than enough without your theory.
You are more than welcomed to believe as you want, choose to "do as though wilt".
But why try to talk people out of believing God's own words and into believing your theory?
Do you actually know of any passage that states that Jesus suffered God's wrath in our stead?
You did.
Behold, all souls are Mine; the [d]soul of the father as well as the [e]soul of the son is Mine. The [f]soul who sins will die.
Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Since he understood and turned away from all his offenses which he had committed, he shall certainly live; he shall not die.
Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”
Yet you, @Martin Marprelate , say, "The way of the Lord is not right."
God's way does not satisfy the demands of your philosophy.
You cannot accept that God is able to make man a new creation in Christ, to make a guilty man innocent.
God tells us there is a manifestation of His righteousness apart from the law.
You scream "How can this be????"
God says "you must be born again".
And you go away disappointed because that truth makes you decide who you will follow, and you have already made your decision.
I was serious when I told you that I do not post for your benefit.
I post so that others who may face the decision you have already made have an opportunity to evaluate your theory, and what I have posted, against God's words. They may still choose to follow their understanding. But perhaps some will choose God.
Maybe everybody here has already made their choice. Maybe, like you, many here are already carried away by their philosophy. I don't know, and it is not my responsibility to know. It is my responsibility to point to God and His words. The damned will be damned. The saved will be saved. That is God's lane. But for me and my house, we will serve God.