Is Allah a different god?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
Your comparison of southern baptists and slavery is non sequitor. Islam always has had slavery and still does til this day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your argument is that the comparison is invalid because the S. Baptists have given up their position on slavery. But that means that you recognize that their original position was wrong, and that they were sinning when they were defending it. Also, I might point out that if this were the year 1935, then the comparison would be valid - since at that time, the S. Baptists (or their predecessors) would have defended slavery.

So you have a weak argument, because it depends entirely upon what year it currently is. You can defend the S. Baptists now, but only because they have abandoned their position.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Look at Sudan. Even the servants in Pakistan are treated as slaves by many of the Muslims. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and many of the workers in Latin America are treated like slaves by the Christians. You can claim that they aren't acting like real christians if you want. But the Muslims can use the same defense about those people in Pakistan whom (you claim) are keeping slaves.

That is the fallacy with the kind of argument you are making.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
There was slavery in the Bible. Paul did not preach against the slavery issue. He knew that the gospel itself would eventually bring freedom to mankind, both spiritually and physically. And so it did. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a strange argument. If it was a sin, then Paul should have preached against it. Are you saying that Paul tolerated the sin, as opposed to standing against it?

It took 2000 years for slavery to be eradicated; it could have happened a lot quicker if people had preached that it was wrong, and tried to convince people to give it up. Are you saying that it is OK to keep silent about a sin, if you think that (at some point in the next 2000 years) the sin will probably go away on its own?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Read the Book of Philemon. Onesimus was granted not only his freedom, but was made free in Christ, a far more important freedom. Don't point your finger at the Baptists when you have three fingers pointing back at yourself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the book of Philemon only tells us that Paul asked Philemon to free Onesimus. But if Paul really wanted to end slavery, then why did he say the following?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
COL 4:1
Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that
ye also have a Master in heaven.

TI1 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters
worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not
blasphemed.

TI1 6:2
And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them,
because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are
faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and
exhort.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Paul really wanted to end slavery, he should have told these masters that they ought to not be holding their fellow brother and human being as a piece of property.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Omnedon1:
If Paul really wanted to end slavery, he should have told these masters that they ought to not be holding their fellow brother and human being as a piece of property.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forgot some quotes:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
TIT 2:9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

TIT 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

PE1 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Omnedon1 ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Barbarian
Rom.1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the BARBARIANS; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
---Did you choose the name "Barbarian" because you know of your need of the gospel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometime ago, I was on another forum, and a rather bumptious atheist was telling me how "barbaric" my Christian faith was. So, I took the name.

By your posts here and on the Creation/evolution forum I would assume that you are either an agnostic or atheist. At any rate you are too ashamed to identify yourself on your profile. As an unbeliever 1Cor. 2:14 applies to you:[/quote]

Nope. You really got a wrong number that time. I'm an orthodox trinitarian Christian.

---Your post reflects a complete misunderstanding of Christianity. The Apostle's Creed does not define Christianity, it arises out of Catholicism.

Nope. "Catholic" in the Creed, means "universal", the Body of Christ, His Church. "Catholic" in that sense applied to any Christian. You're wrong about the Creed, too. It is the earliest statement of Christians, defining who they were and what they believed. The Creed defines the minimum beliefs necessary. It came about because of the persecutions. Some Gnostics claimed that they had a higher knowledge, and that it was sufficient to "know" God, and it was not necessary to witness Him and suffer persecution. So Christians adopted the Creed so that all would know who we were.

The natural man (unsaved, not born again) receives not (does not understand) the things of the Spirit of God (spiritual things).

---You have a complete misunderstanding of what it is to be born again. That has nothing whatsoever to do with baptism. Water is purely symbolic. It has never washed away anyone's sin. And baptism is always carried out after one receives the gift of salvation, after one believes, never as an infant, never before he is able to believe the gospel.

That is a modern change. The earliest records of this mention a man being baptised with all his household. Not just adults. Of course the water is symbolic. It is what Christians call a sacremental, and outward sign of what goes on in the spirit.

But water is completely unnecessary. A baptism of desire is completely, fully a baptism.

There is no incident or example anywhere in the Bible of any infant ever getting baptized. We have no Biblical precedent for it whatsoever.

There's no place in the Bible about God being one in three persons, either. Your point is?

You did not read my analogy close enough. All Muslims, from Osama to your nest door neighbor believe the same body of doctrine--the five pillars of the faith, the Koran, Allah, Mohammed. In this basic body of belief they do not differ.

I see that. However, I don't see how that erases the fact that they worship the same God we do.

That cannot be said of so-called Christendom. Those holding the basic tenets of Christianity as I have set forth (and that is only a few of them--by no means any thing extensive), would not include most of the groups you have mentioned.

Sorry, that's wrong, too. These people were fundamentalist Christians. Some of them are of other Christian sects, but not many.

Your attack on Biblical Christianity is most pitiable.

Nonexistant, actually. It's in your mind, but nowhere else.

---Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian.

He claimed to be. So do "Muslim" terrorists claim to be Muslims. I don't see any difference.

---The Crusades were not Christian. They were done under the guise of Catholicism, which again is not Christian, and never has been.

No, that's wrong, too. Most of the world's Christians are Roman Catholics. I know a few cults deny that Catholics and other orthodox Christians are "real" Christians, but they are fringe groups with no standing among most of us.

---The KKK may have held to some orthodox doctrine. That didn't make them true Christians, and doesn't mean that they were born again or saved (#1).

In fact, they require the very tenets you mentioned. They are, almost all of them, fundmentalists.

---Likewise for your Christian Identity Movement.
---Likewise the spread of smallpox among the Indians was not done by Christians.
---Get your facts straight before you start posting a lot of diatribe. I stated and defined my position first. Don't redefine it. Work within it. Christianity is a faith, a relationship with Christ based on love. Islam is a religion, a religion based on works, works that in many cases sponsor terrorism as an means to their end.

These folks all were Christians by your criteria. Most of them subscribed to the tenets you mentioned. You're appalled and embarassed, and want to disown them. Most Muslims feel that way about the terrorists. Do you now see how foolish and unChristian it is to smear an entire religion for the excesses of a few?

Your comparison of southern baptists and slavery is non sequitor.

Nope. It's a fact. Again, I commend them for apologizing for their support of slavery and mistreatment of blacks. But it doesn't erase the fact.

Islam always has had slavery and still does til this day. Look at Sudan. Even the servants in Pakistan are treated as slaves by many of the Muslims. There was slavery in the Bible. Paul did not preach against the slavery issue

You seem to be arguing that slavery is OK here. As I said, the Baptists are to be commended for rejecting their earlier doctrines of slavery and racism.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: The Barbarian ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
Barbarian, they CLAIM it is the same deity. This would logically imply that the Islamic deity has the same character and characteristics as the God of the Bible, but they have very different attributes.

Attributes vs. ???
The Bible gives both positive and negative attributes of God.

The Q'ran only gives the negative, saying what Allah is not, never what he is.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT?

I'm not going to go point-by-point through this list. Suffice it to say that is has enough holes in it to drive an aircraft carrier through it. But on this last point, I had to speak up. It is painfully obvious that your source (or perhaps yourself) have zero first-hand knowledge of Islam.

The following are quotes from the Qur'an showing what Allah is. The title of each sura appears above, in case anyone wants to look up the text by the sura name.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The Cow
2:143 and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.

[2.255] Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.


Yusuf
[12:64] but Allah is the best Keeper, and He is the most Merciful of the merciful ones.
[12.92] He said: (There shall be) no reproof against you this day; Allah may forgive you, and He is the most Merciful of the merciful.


Abraham
14:8 Allah is Self-sufficient, Praised;

The Bee
[16.18] And if you would count Allah's favors, you will not be able to number them; most surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Pilgrimage
[22.39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
[22.40] Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.
[22.54] And that those who have been given the knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, so they may believe in it and their hearts may be lowly before it; and most surely Allah is the Guide of those who believe into a right path.
[22.58] And (as for) those who fly in Allah's way and are then slain or die, Allah will most certainly grant them a goodly sustenance, and most surely Allah is the best Giver of sustenance.
[22.59] He will certainly cause them to enter a place of entrance which they shall be well pleased with, and most surely Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.
[22.60] That (shall be so); and he who retaliates with the like of that with which he has been afflicted and he has been oppressed, Allah will most certainly aid him; most surely.Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
[22.64] His is whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth; and most surely Allah is the Self-sufficient, the Praised.
[22.65] Do you not see that Allah has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the earth and the ships running in the sea by His command? And He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except with His permission; most surely Allah is Compassionate, Merciful to men.
[22.74] They have not estimated Allah with the estimation that i due to Him; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.

22:40 and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.


The Accessions
[8.40] And if they turn back, then know that Allah is your Patron; most excellent is the Patron and most excellent the Helper.

Jonah
[10.60] And what will be the thought of those who forge lies against Allah on the day of resurrection? Most surely Allah is the Lord of grace towards men, but most of them do not give thanks.

The Clans
[33.51] You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.

The Originator
[35.31] And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the truth verifying that which is before it; most surely with respect to His servants Allah is Aware, Seeing.
[35.34] And they shall say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has made grief to depart from us; most surely our Lord is Forgiving, Multiplier of rewards,

The Believer
[40.61] Allah is He Who made for you the night that you may rest therein and the day to see; most surely Allah is Gracious to men, but most men do not give thanks.

She Who Pleaded
[58.2] (As for) those of you who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers, they are not their mothers; their mothers are no others than those who gave them birth; and most surely they utter a hateful word and a falsehood and most surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
[58.21] Allah has written down: I will most certainly prevail, I and My apostles; surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.


The Banishment
[59.24] He is Allah the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner; His are the most excellent names; whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares His glory; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are literally dozens of such references. But I didn't have time to include them all.

By the same token, the majority of the other "differences" that you have described here are likewise incorrect. And yes, I do know what I am talking about: I have a BA in Middle Eastern Affairs and a second BA in Arabic Language and Literature. Because of that, I can tell you that your source material here is hopelessly wrong and biased.

If you really want to know what Islam says and thinks (and are not merely trying to create a demon out of a religion that you don't understand) may I make a suggestion? Try reading the book Islam, by Alfred Guillaume. (ISBN 01402.03117). It's an easy read, paperback, and less than 200 pages. You can probably find it for under $10.00.
It traces the history of pre-Islamic Arabia, the Muslim empires, the various sects/beliefs of Islam, and concludes with a comparison between Islam and Christianity.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Some of the above information is from Morey's book, previously referenced. Some is from my own studies as was in my head.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's unfortunate.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Omnedon1 ]

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Omnedon1 ]

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Omnedon1 ]

 

Oh, my. I think I have to eat some crow here.



I see where Helen has had an off-line email discussion with another individual, who has explained to her the scholarship issues with Morey.

Folks, let my mistake be a lesson to everyone. Read the ENTIRE thread before responding. Much less embarrassing that way.

 

Omnedon1
"It took 2000 years for slavery to be eradicated; it could have happened a lot quicker if people had preached that it was wrong, and tried to convince people to give it up. Are you saying that it is OK to keep silent about a sin, if you think that (at some point in the next 2000 years) the sin will probably go away on its own?"
---Please take a vacation and go live in Sudan.

Barbarian
"That is a modern change. The earliest records of this mention a man being baptised with all his household. Not just adults. Of course the water is symbolic. It is what Christians call a sacremental, and outward sign of what goes on in the spirit.
But water is completely unnecessary. A baptism of desire is completely, fully a baptism."
---What you call a modern change is pure Catholicism which did not originate until the fourth century. In Acts 16:31ff, we have the instance of the Philippian jailor first being saved (believing on Christ), and then bringing Paul and Silas to his own house where Paul is able to preach the gospel to his entire household. That household included his servants, and may have included his extended family as well, although we are not told. Those old enough to understand, believed the preaching of Paul and were saved. There is no indication of the presence of infants. The passage simply indicates that those that believed were baptized. Baptism follows salvation. It is not a sacrament, but an ordinance. I do not have to follow church fathers or history. I must follow the Word of God. This is the plain teaching of the Word of God.
"Baptism of desire" is another "catholic" invention. You don't find that in the Bible. The Catholic Church with their many inventions, traditions of men, idolatry, etc. is not a Christian Church.

"I see that. However, I don't see how that erases the fact that they worship the same God we do."
---Our God is the Christ of the Bible. Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, and the Christ of the New Testament. He is God.

1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
---Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.
Do the Muslims believe this? Will they accept Jesus Christ as their God? Unless they do, they do not pray to the same God that we pray to.

He claimed to be. So do "Muslim" terrorists claim to be Muslims. I don't see any difference.
---Timothy McVeigh's claims are meaningless. He was not a saved man. He was not a Christian.
---Understand the basic difference here: It is easy to become a Muslim. Adhere to the five pillars of Islam. Your holy book is the Koran, your God is Allah, and His prophet is Mohammed.
To be a Christian one must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, inviting Him to be Lord and Saviour of one's life. This is much more difficult. It involves an admission that one is a sinner worthy of eternal damnation. Thus it involves a belief in Hell, Heaven, the Bible as God's Holy and inspired Word, the Deity of Jesus Christ, the personality of the Holy Spirit the triune Godhead, the all-sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Birth, the depravity of man, etc. Once a person believes in Christ, he takes Him, not only as Saviour, but as Lord. If He is Lord, He is Master of your life. Are you willing to submit to Him in every area? Very few are. And very few are Christians for these same reasons.

"No, that's wrong, too. Most of the world's Christians are Roman Catholics."
Again, you need to come to a proper understanding of Christianity, as I described above. The Roman Catholic Church is not a Christian Church, and never was. I was a Catholic for 20 years. I was saved out of Catholicism. Now I am a Christian.

"These folks all were Christians by your criteria. Most of them subscribed to the tenets you mentioned. You're appalled and embarassed, and want to disown them."
---No, they were not Christians by my criteria. You just don't understand the criteria I posted. As for being appalled and embarrassed, I have nothing to be appalled or embarrassed about.
DHK

 

He claimed to be. So do "Muslim" terrorists claim to be Muslims. I don't see any difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>---Timothy McVeigh's claims are meaningless. He was not a saved man. He was not a Christian.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only God knows such things. But He espoused Christianity, it the same way the other terrorists espoused Islam. There's no difference. Evil done in the name of Christianity is no different than evil done in the name of Islam.

(discusses Christianity, and what it demands)

Muslims have different conceptions of God than we do. But they still worship Him.

"No, that's wrong, too. Most of the world's Christians are Roman Catholics."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Again, you need to come to a proper understanding of Christianity, as I described above.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be blunt, your behavior seems at odds with your claims to be Christian. Those who attempt to separate other Christians from God's church are merely separating themselves from God. You've got way too much pride tied up in this.

(mentions conversion from Catholocism to another church)

I would be pleased to hear that you found salvation anywhere. You have no less chance of heaven as a Protestant. But it appears that you haven't yet learned to let God take charge of your life and heart.

"These folks all were Christians by your criteria. Most of them subscribed to the tenets you mentioned. You're appalled and embarassed, and want to disown them."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>---No, they were not Christians by my criteria. You just don't understand the criteria I posted. As for being appalled and embarrassed, I have nothing to be appalled or embarrassed about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've just decided that such people can't be Christians, because they did horrible things. Muslims claim that people who do terrible names in the name of Islam are not true Muslims.

I can see it's terribly important for you to believe that only you and a few others are really with God. Happiness in Christian life waits for you to sort out why that is so.

I wish you well. In every sense of the word.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
[QB]Omnedon1
"It took 2000 years for slavery to be eradicated; it could have happened a lot quicker if people had preached that it was wrong, and tried to convince people to give it up. Are you saying that it is OK to keep silent about a sin, if you think that (at some point in the next 2000 years) the sin will probably go away on its own?"[/b]

---Please take a vacation and go live in Sudan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which of course, would prove nothing.

You were the one who first suggested that Paul didn't preach against slavery because he knew it was going to go away. If you're suddenly uncomfortable with your previous statement, then have the honesty to renounce it.

Either that, or please answer my question and stop evading points you don't like.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
He claimed to be. So do "Muslim" terrorists claim to be Muslims. I don't see any difference.
---Timothy McVeigh's claims are meaningless. He was not a saved man. He was not a Christian.
---Understand the basic difference here: It is easy to become a Muslim. Adhere to the five pillars of Islam. Your holy book is the Koran, your God is Allah, and His prophet is Mohammed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[description of christian conversion deleted for irrelevancy]

You are only saying that McVeigh was not a christian because you are judging his acts. Unless you've suddenly become god and no one informed the rest of us, you are not able to see his heart.

By the same token, Muslims can say that these Muslim terrorists are not Muslim: they also look at the outward actions and decide that they are not the acts of a true Muslim.

So the situation is exactly equal here. Just because each religion's conversion experience/requirement have different characteristics does not change the fact that the comparison of faith-vs.-actions here is identical.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

Hmmm... Let's take a look...
Protestants 11
George W. Bush 11
Jesus Christ 11
[ January 01, 2002 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Random words adding up to 11 or 666 are not the point. The point is that words, dates, etc. that have directly to do with events and things that related to Scriptural passages show God Almighty's prior knowledge of them. This proves His existance, omniscience, and omnipotence, as opposed to the god of Islam.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

As noted before, Muslims worship the same God as we do, albeit with some misunderstandings, from our point of view.
[ January 01, 2002 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They worship the same God that WE do?! Not the same God I do. Any religion that denies the Deity of Christ, His bloody substitutionary death on the cross to rescue doomed sinners, His resurrection from the dead, the Trinity, salvation by grace, the authority of the Bible, etc. does not worship Almighty Jehovah. Not Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, nor any other perversion of Truth.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20)

Speaking the Truth in love,
John Henry

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Omnedon1:


But amazingly, only in English. If I were German, or French, or Arabic, these same words would have different numeric values.

I guess it's John Henry's position that God and Jesus speak English, 'cuz that's the language that results in such clever numerical "signs".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about other languages, but I do know that there are evidences like the ones I have spoken of in Hebrew, Greek, and also in the #1 end time language, English.

And yes, since Jesus is omniscient, God does speak English. Furthermore, God knew English (as well as all other languages) before it was ever spoken.

The point is that words that add up to 666 are directly related to Scriptural passages.

The really amazing thing is that folks so often refuse to use the common sense that God gave them, and opt to reject facts.

Regards,
John Henry

 

John Henery


You cannot possibly read Christ turning down the goodness that was offered to him, and yet go on to argue that Christ meant that he was/is God!

If he had said “why do you call me NOT GOOD” then you might have had a point. But he explicitly says “why do you call me good?” Christ turns down the goodness that was offered to him. Which true perfect God is not good!

And you say but Jesus was a man? But the word of God as found in the Bible says GOD IS NOT A MAN!

---------------------------
"GOD IS NOT A MAN that He should lie, NOR A MORTAL that He SHOULD CHANGE HIS MIND" (Numbers 23:19); the "…Eternal One of Israel WILL NOT LIE NOR CHANGE HIS MIND: for HE IS NOT A MAN, that He SHOULD CHANGE HIS MIND" (I Samuel 15:29).
---------------------------
Old Testament (Emphasis mine)

Here is the take of Robert Squirs, an ex-practicing American Christian, now a devoted Muslim:
---------------------------
RS: If you study the development of Christian doctrines, or even the commentaries on the doctrines themselves, you'll come across this type of contradictory double-speak. For example, in many places in the Bible, Jesus ("the Son") and the Holy Spirit are clearly shown to be subordinate to "the Father".

Additionally, Jesus too is shown to lack several of the necessary attributes of God (All-Knowing, Transcendent, etc.). Jesus spoke of "his Father" in heaven as "his God" (John 20:17), to whom he attributed superior authority, greatness and knowledge (Matthew 10:40 and 20:23; Mark 13:32, Luke 22:42 and John 5:36 and 14:28). Jesus was tempted (Matthew 4:1; Mark 1:13 and Luke 4:2), but God is never tempted (James 1:13). Christian theologians, upon recognizing this, claim that in spite of all this, they still "affirm" that Jesus is God, that He is the same "substance" as "the father" and that Jesus has all of the "necessary qualities of deity".

What is this except double-talk? They can "affirm" and "confirm" it from now until the Last Day, but that doesn't change the fact that Jesus - even according to the Bible - doesn't have these necessary qualities. The Bible shows that Jesus lacks the necessary qualities of deity, but "in spite of this” Christians affirm that he does! This is nothing but sheer foolishness and misguidance - not to speak of contradicting God! If they're going to override clear statements in the Bible based on some sort of subjective spiritual feeling that they have (as some Christians claim), then what's the point of having textual sources for your beliefs?
---------------------------
A Muslim response to a Christian response

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: eString ]

 

DHK

That you can quote some Christian source is easy! That is no proof, however, of anything. These are what fair just people call unfounded accusations. Note the general nature of the reports. And in case you don't know, any accused is innocent until proven guilty.

These sources you quote are missionary sources (by definition biased accounts) that have VESTED INTEREST to magnify any abnormalities and even LIE to get people to sympathize with their sorry arguments. No wonder they will continue to lose. If the choice is between believing local Christians who trust Muslims with their holy places and with very their lives so much so as to want to share a homeland with them, and those missionaries, then the choice for any objective observer should be clear.

After all, and “for your gift of a fifty US$ or more, or for your gift of US$100 or more” these missionaries will tell you whatever you want to hear! Even that Jesus PBUH ( a man by his own admission!), is God, in spite of all the explicit teachings of the word of God as found in the Bible!


---------------------
"God is not a man that He should lie, nor a mortal that He should change His mind"
---------------------
(Numbers 23:19)


EVEN IF
But even if I concede that these incidents did take place for the sake of argument only, that does not, (I repeat: that does not) prove or disprove that the God of Muslims is not the God that spoke to Moses PBUH. We have covered this flawed logic extensively above.

For if you were living at the time when the Children of Israel worshiped Baal, and were I then to show you a video of these people worshiping that thing, will you then conclude that the God of the Bible is not the True God of this universe?

YOUR FALSE COMPARISON
Flawed logic, false assumptions, and now false comparisons! A recurring habit it seems!


PRINCE OF PEACE?
The scriptures do not say that Jesus PBUH IS a prince of peace! The scripture says that he SHALL BE CALLED so and so, which is EXACTLY what you and others are now doing!

As you can read in my Conjecture response above, people might call you a million different things. But does that calling make you what they have called you? Being is one thing, and calling is an altogether different thing. After all was not Jesus PBUH who said that he came to bring a sword! Why a sword? To peel apples! Let me tell you why. To kill the Anti-Christ which you now worship!

KILLED FOR [THEIR] FAITH?
Did not Moses PBUH, David PBUH and others kill for their faith? Is their God not the true God of the universe? And Muhammad's disciples (PBUH) too were killed for their faith!

KILLING THE INFIDELS?
First you are quoting Paul (a Pharisee the son of a Pharisee by his own admission), not Jesus Christ PBUH. Additionally, Paul never saw Jesus PBUH in the fresh. And do excuse the analogy, but sure one can quote the devil telling us what you (DHK) think and preach, but that does not make what the devil says you preach an accurate account of what you stand for, or does it! One must quote YOUR words, not those of the Devil!

And brace yourself!
---------------------------
023:020 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

023:021 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

023:022 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

023:023 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

023:024 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods Nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

023:025 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
---------------------------
(Exodus)

That was an explicit command in the Law which you hold in your hands! Now, need I remind you that Jesus PBUH says he did not come to break the law! That not one title, including those quoted above, are to pass from the law until this heaven and earth pass away! And thus, Jesus PBUH, with his own tongue, in the flesh, in the first person makes it EXPLICITLY clear that he is all for that you now abhor!

Note how when Jesus Christ PBUH says left, that you say he said right! But I digress.

With that explicit law and Jesus' words in the first person (in Matthew quoted earlier about the Law) (as opposed to the words of Paul!) in mind, are you going to say that, therefore, the God of Moses PBUH is not the true God of the universe? See why you believe what you believe IN SPITE OF THE WORD OF GOD as found in the Bible, not because of it!

I can go over each one of your points and refute them for the anti-Christ doctrine that you now seem to cherish, but enough said here. Those who hear let them hear, and those who will forebare let them forebare.

---------------------------------
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
---------------------------------
039.007: If ye reject (Allah), Truly Allah hath no need of you; but He liketh not ingratitude from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your Return, when He will tell you the truth of all that ye did (in this life). for He knoweth well all that is in (men's) hearts.

039.008: And when some hurt toucheth man, he crieth unto his Lord, turning unto Him (repentant). Then, when He granteth him a boon from Him he forgetteth that for which he cried unto Him before, and setteth up rivals to Allah that he may beguile (men) from his way. Say (O Muhammad, unto such an one): Take pleasure in thy disbelief a while. Lo! thou art of the owners of the Fire.

039.009: Is he who payeth adoration in the watches of the night, prostrate and standing, bewaring of the Hereafter and hoping for the mercy of his Lord, (to be accounted equal with a disbeliever)? Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Are those who know equal with those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed.

039.010: Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is Allah's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!"

039.011: Say: "Verily, I am commanded to serve Allah with sincere devotion

039.012: "And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).

039.013: Say: "Lo! if I should disobey my Lord, I fear the doom of a tremendous Day."

039.014: Say: "Allah I worship, making my religion pure for Him (only).

039.015: "SERVE YE WHAT YE WILL BESIDES HIM." Say: "Truly, those in loss are those who lose their own souls and their People on the Day of Judgment: Ah! that is indeed the (real and) evident Loss!

039.016: They shall have Layers of Fire above them, and Layers (of Fire) below them: with this doth Allah warn off his servants: "O My Servants! then fear ye Me!"

039.017: And those who put away false gods lest they should worship them and turn to Allah in repentance, for them there are glad tidings. Therefor give good tidings (O Muhammad) to My bondmen

039.018: Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.

039.019: Is he on whom the word of doom is fulfilled (to be helped), and canst thou (O Muhammad) rescue him who is in the Fire?

039.020: But it is for those who fear their Lord. That lofty mansions, one above another, have been built: beneath them flow rivers (of delight): (such is) the Promise of Allah: never doth Allah fail in (His) promise.

039.021: Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours: then it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow; then He makes it dry up and crumble away. Truly, in this, is a Message of remembrance to men of understanding.

039.022: Is one whose heart Allah has opened to Islam, so that he has received Enlightenment from Allah, (no better than one hard-hearted)? Woe to those whose hearts are hardened against celebrating the praises of Allah! they are manifestly wandering (in error)!
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an) (EMPHASIS MINE).

 

Eric B


I am back. I apologize for taking all this time. This is one of two parts (I hope) in response to the issues you raised.

THE SIGN OF JONAH
Eric, the issue here is not “simply the three days.” Where is the sign in the notion that it is simply the three days?

The Jews asked for a sign, i.e. a miracle, a thing out of the ordinary. And so if the sign of Jonah was that he remained ALIVE against all odds (a fact agreed to by Jews, Christians, and Muslims) then to be as Jonah was, the son of man had to be ALIVE too, just as Jonah was.

Where is the sign in the three days argument you presented? How can the burial be a sign? If you bury someone for one day, or two days, or a million days then this is no sign, Eric. The sign (miracle) is that if you do something as was done to Jonah you expect him to die. Now, if he stays alive, then it is a miracle!

When you throw someone into a raging sea, you expect him to die. If he stays alive, then it is a miracle! If a whale bites (the man left and right) and begins to swallow the man in that same raging sea, you expect him to drawn, be crushed and get killed. If he stays alive, it is yet another miracle! If he stays for three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, you expect him to suffocate and die. If he lives and cries to his God and prays IN SIDE the belly of the whale it is yet another miracle! It is a miracle of miracles! Many times over!

And so staying ALIVE against all odds is the SIGN, Eric. If you hang someone and he dies, then there is no miracle! If you bury him and he dies, it is no miracle! Whether the time is one day or a million days. If he dies (for any number of days) then it is no miracle! However, if he stays ALIVE against all odds, then and only then it becomes a miracle. One like that of prophet Jonah PBUH.

And so, for the son of man to be AS JONAH WAS, he had then to have been ALIVE, just AS JONAH WAS! This is your own language Eric. Christians say that Jesus was as Jonah was NOT! But by believing so they are at odds with the Christ of God! After all these are the words of Christ PBUH. Christians are following some other Christ, Eric, not the biblical Christ PBUH.

WHAT IS A RESURRECTED ENTITY
Ask any language group on this earth: what is a resurrected entity, and they will almost all invariably tell you a spirit. You know spirits, no? These things you cannot touch, pocket, or feel.

PAUL
(St.) Paul, who never saw Jesus PBUH in the flesh, and who many Muslims blame for all that is upon us now, says concerning the resurrected of Jesus PBUH: "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption." (1 Corinthians: 15:42).

He continues: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians: 15:44).

And so indeed, even Paul admits that the resurrected are SPIRITS! And he was confirming what Jesus PBUH said concerning the resurrected.

JESUS' DEFINITION OF THE RESURRECTED
You see the learned men of the Jews came to him (Jesus PBUH) once with this riddle (like they used to quite often) and asked about this women who had seven husbands. According to a Jewish custom, a brother of a man who dies and leaves a wife with no children must marry his dead brother's wife. If the second brother dies, the third brother marries her, and the fourth and the fifth, and the sixth, and the seventh. This woman had seven husbands. But since she had her husbands one at the time here, it was no problem. But what happens when all of the brothers and the wife are resurrected simultaneously. Surely if they all want her back they would then fight over her in the Hereafter and there will be war. So what happens? The learned men of Jews asked Jesus.

Jesus replied:

"Neither can they die any more:" (Luke 20:36) Meaning that whatever caused death on earth can't cause death to the resurrected. Lack of food, sex, deadly blows, another hanging on the cross, you name it- nothing will cause another death to the resurrected.

One is resurrected only once. Not only that, but Jesus PBUH continues: "for they (the resurrected bodies) are equal unto the angles." Meaning that they will be angelized, i.e. SPIRITS.

Please note how Christ PBUH says Resurrected = Angles. Indeed if you are unsure what an angel is made of please read:
---------------------------------
104 003 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

104 004 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
---------------------------------
(Psalms)


Having known what a resurrected entity is (only a spirit, a ghost, or a spook), we must then examine if Jesus Christ PBUH took that form and then decide if he indeed died for anybody's sin and was resurrected shortly thereafter or not.


WHAT DOES "CRUCIFY" MEAN?
Perhaps it is worth noting that "to Crucify" means to kill by means of hanging or impaling on the cross. Do look it up in the dictionary.

And so if a Timothy was hanged on the cross and is brought down a while later still alive walking around and smoking cigarettes, then he was not technically speaking crucified. He was hanged on the cross, yes. But you see because that hanging didn't cause him to die, one cannot say that he was crucified and be telling the truth.

If years later this Timothy dies of Cancer, one cannot say he was crucified (even when he actually was hanged [fastened] onto the cross)-- rather one should say Timothy died of Cancer as this was the cause of his death, not the hanging on the cross.

The deficiency is in the English language which is unable to differentiate between [1] hanging (fastening) on the cross, and [2] dying on the cross.


JESUS WAS NOT CRUCIFIED!
Armed with this definition of the Crucifixion, one must state that if the hanging on the cross didn't cause the death of Jesus, then Jesus was not crucified. The Qur'an and amazingly enough the Bible testify to that-- that Jesus wasn't crucified (i.e. caused to die on the cross).

---------------------------------
"And their saying in boast : Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are full of doubts; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow conjecture, and they surely killed him not."
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an, 4:157).


This is a bold statement that can only come from one who knows the facts, someone like Almighty God. But let's not stop here. Let's study this matter in the Bible.

THEY FORSOOK HIM AND FLED
In the Bible, you will read that at the most crucial juncture of the life of Jesus ALL his disciples forsook him and fled. ALL of them. Read (Mark 14:50) "And they all forsook him, and fled."

So the Bible reports Jesus is hanged on the cross; this is what people were talking about. This is what the disciples had heard from heresy, because they had "ALL FORSOOK HIM AND FLED."(Mark 14:50) (Emphasis added). Likewise, they had heard from heresy that Jesus had given up the ghost on the cross. This is what people were talking about. This is what the absent disciples assumed then to be the sad end to their Rabbi.

Proof of that is evident in their terror when Jesus goes to the upper room after his alleged crucifixion and resurrection, when he says to them " Peace be unto you." (Luke 24:36). [This is the official Muslim greeting by the way!].

Instead of going to kiss and hug their Rabbi, "they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit." (Luke 24:37).

Why were they terrified? They were so because they thought they had seen a SPIRIT. After all they had heard (as opposed to witnessed) that Jesus had given up the ghost on the cross.

But did they?

Did they see a spirit?


A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES!
Listen to Jesus, peace be upon the prophet of God, speaking after his alleged crucifixion and resurrection (when he ought to have been a spirit!):

---------------------------------
"And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a S-P-I-R-I-T hath not F-L-E-S-H and B-O-N-E-S, as ye S-E-E me H-A-V-E."
---------------------------------
(Luke 24:38-39) (Emphasis is mine)


Jesus' PBUH answer is an EMPHATIC NO! The Christ of God says that he WAS NO SPIRIT, i.e., not resurrected (and thus was not crucified!), and this according to Jesus' PBUH OWN definition of the resurrected, Eric!

Here feel me, Jesus says: I have F-L-E-S-H and B-O-N-E-S! I'm still A-L-I-V-E!!!

Jesus IS DENYING that he was a SPIRIT!Can you believe it? Christ EXPLICITLY ASSERTS that he was of FLESH AND BONES-- a form which no resurrected entity (spirit) ought to have.

Jesus is refuting his own resurrection! In the first person, mind you. Must I remind you that a resurrected entity in Jesus' own words is "equal unto the angels." (Luke 20:36), i.e., spirit, spook, ghost!

And Jesus does not stop there. Seeking to assure his disciples further, Jesus says: "Have ye here any meat?" (Luke 24:41) Meaning something to eat.

"And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
"And he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:42-43).


Why did Jesus make this demonstration? Was he doing an act of drama? Of course not; he was underlining his need for nourishment. Only living humans (not resurrected spiritual bodies) need food to stay alive.

More proof of this can be found in the Bible. You read how Jesus (PBUH) does not come out in the open after that, how he is ever in hiding. Why? He is worried that he will be caught, that's why! Surely a spiritualized entity must not worry about that!

So here is your proof that Jesus didn't die for anyone's sins, that he was not resurrected. Proof that Jesus himself offers for all of us to read, one that makes him indeed exactly like Jonah was! ALIVE against all odds! And thus Jesus PBUH indeed proved that he was indeed the Messiah.

GOD ALWAYS DEMANDED SACRIFICE?
Not according to the Bible!

Read for yourself Almighty God (in the First Person) speaking:
---------------------------
007: 021 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.

007: 022 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

007: 023 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

007: 024 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
---------------------------
Jeremiah

Please note how the Bible reports Almighty God in the first person declaring that He SPAKE NOT, and COMMANDED NOT the fathers of the sons of Israel concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices! Emphasis on the verb “spake not.” Which means that anything that begins to constitute what we call speech is hereby denied!

According to Almighty God's first person words as reported in the Bible, what He asked them is clear and explicit: to obey His voice, His Law, and all His commandments-- a message repeated throughout the Bible, even by Christ PBUH when asked how one is to inherit eternal life (see verse references in part 3 of this thread). Is this all a freak coincidence, Eric? Why is the message of Almighty God and His prophets (including Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon all the prophets of God) in total agreement, Eric? Why is Jesus PBUH denying his crucifixion and resurrection and offering that commandment answer (in total agreement with Almighty God's words quoted above and those reported by Muhammad PBUH and the other prophets) as the means to inheriting eternal life? Most importantly, and when asked how one is to enter heaven, why does Christ PBUH not mention (and in at least three different places in the Bible) that answer that you now believe in, Eric? Another coincidence?

WHY MECCA, WHY CHANGE MY NAME?
First of all no one said that to become Muslim that one must change his or her name. I suspect that Muslim reverts change their name to Abdullah (Servant of Allah), Abdul Rahman (Servant of the Most Gracious), Abdul Raheem (Servant of the Most Merciful) for two reasons: [1] To aid the cause of Islam. These names stand out and automatically invite other people to ask why. [2] To highlight their humility and submission to Almighty God, that they are not racist, not proud, that they are willing to give up even that dear thing which constitutes what they are to make themselves brothers to what many call third world ignorant populations. That is all there is to it, Eric.

As to the general question of why, then kindly allow me to say that you are approaching your search the wrong way. One must not question the reason why, no. Rather one must question whether or not this is Almighty God that is giving the commandment or not. Otherwise, one would be questioning the wisdom of God, Eric. Beware.

But to answer your question, let me tell you this: Almighty God put us here on this earth so that we might worship Him.


---------------------------------
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
---------------------------------
I have only created Jinns and mankind, that they may worship Me.
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an, 51:56)

Trying to comfort His prophet PBUH who was (and continues to be called an imposter by those of proud look), Almighty God says:

---------------------------------
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
---------------------------------
011.117: In truth thy Lord destroyed not the townships tyrannously while their folk were doing right.

011.118: And if thy Lord had willed, He verily would have made mankind one nation, yet they cease not differing,

011.119: Save him on whom thy Lord hath mercy; and for that He did create them. And the Word of thy Lord hath been fulfilled: Verily I shall fill hell with the jinn and mankind together.

011.120: And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers.

011.121: Say to those who do not believe: "Do what ever ye can: We shall do our part;

011.122: "And wait ye! We too shall wait."

011.123: To Allah do belong the unseen (secrets) of the heavens and the earth, and to Him goeth back every affair (for decision): then worship Him, and put thy trust in Him: and thy Lord is not unmindful of aught that ye do.
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an)


And thus, humans are created for the sole purpose of worshiping and serving Almighty God. But He knows that they are not perfect, Eric. Who can possibly know about us more than our creator? No one. And so I put it to you that His mercy goes hand in hand with His purpose of creating us. Almighty God is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. This is what He is. He knows that we are not perfect and that we will sin. This is why He gave us that formula you find in your Bible:

---------------------------------
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
---------------------------------
2 Chronicles 007:014

No need for Jesus PBUH to be crucified and be an “accursed of God” (just like Satan!) trying to save humanity! Almighty God WILL FORGIVE THEIR sins if they humble themselves, and pray, and seek His face and turn from their wicked ways. He WILL HEAR FROM HEAVEN, Eric! Please note that Muslims are called by the name of Almighty God! Every Friday and during the Friday sermon, and all over this earth, an Imam (a priest like figure) says the following: “O ye servants of Allah. Fear your lord.”

And so if humanity wants to be rewarded with eternal life, and be forgiven its sins it should humble itself and follow the formula He gave them.

Indeed, He is the Oft-Forgiving:
---------------------------------
067:001: Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;-

067:002: He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an)


They should follow His commands is what they should do.


THE MISSING WEEK
Now concerning Mecca. Please kindly allow me to quote myself answering a similar question on another religion board.

--------------------------------- ----------------
Concerning your first question, some muslims scholars believe that this calendar issue is important because it marks the start of the Muslim civilization. They argue that for any civilization to be born and prosper that it should be in possession of key ingredients: Language, system of belief, etc. One important ingredient is a place where this (or any) civilization can carry out its functions, use its language, and implement its system. Thus, some Muslim scholars argue that before the Hijra (the prophets' move to Madina) there was no place under the control of the Muslims, and as such the Muslim civilization was lacking one of its vital ingredients.

They may have a point there. But I think that the matter is much more than that. I believe that this was the plan of Almighty God, Christian, taking shape.

Consider what archangel Gabriel PBUH told Daniel PBUH concerning the end of days:
---------------------------------
"Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place."
---------------------------------
(RSV, Dan 9:24)

Note that there is a SEALING of vision and of prophethood involved. Note also that there is the anointing of a most holy place. Mecca? We will see this shortly.

Christian scholars can account for the 69 weeks of years of the 70 weeks mentioned above, but are in disagreement as to where the last week is/was. Did it end with the cutting off of the Messiah PBUH, or is it yet to start and to end at the end of days. And since they (Christian scholars) can read that verse in Daniel about the Anti-Christ making agreements with many for one week, etc., and because they are too preoccupied to even consider that Mohammed PBUH is truly the Comforter, they think that that week of the Anti-Christ is the seventieth. But it is not!

Take (Dan 9:24) to any English professor, and he/she will tell you (from a purely linguistic perspective) that it can also mean that there are two sets of seventy weeks of years involved.

This is the meaning that Christian scholars miss: Seventy weeks of years are decreed:
[1] To finish the transgression,
[2] To put an end to sin,
[3] and to atone for iniquity

And another set of seventy weeks of years are decreed to:
[1] bring everlasting righteousness
[2] to seal both vision and the prophet
[3] and to anoint a most holy place.


With regards to the first set of seventy weeks: Seven + sixty two = 69, Angel Gabriel PBUH explains them as follows:
---------------------------------
"And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed."
---------------------------------
(RSV, Dan 9: 26)


Let us back up one verse and let me quote from the sermon of a Christian priest in the 1960's:
---------------------------------
"... there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time." {Dan 9:25b RSV Modified}

What is Gabriel talking about here? He says there is a definite starting point when the four hundred and ninety years would begin. It is a clear-cut, precise act, recorded in history. It is the time when a decree should go forth to build the city and walls of Jerusalem.

[Cut]

According to Nehemiah, the decree was issued in the twentieth year of the reign of Artaxerxes. We can pinpoint that precisely as occurring in the year 445 B.C.

[Cut]

The angel also indicated that this 490 year period would be divided, first into two divisions, one of seven weeks, and then sixty-two weeks. Seven weeks of seven years each is forty-nine years. During that forty-nine year period the city was to be built again, "with squares and moat, but in a troubled time." History has clearly fulfilled that. The city of Jerusalem was built again. The walls were repaired and the entire city was restored once more. That carries us down to the close of the Old Testament period. Then would follow sixty-two weeks of years, which would be a period of four hundred and thirty-four years. Add this to the forty-nine years and there is a total of four hundred and eighty-three years unto the coming of one here called "an anointed one, a Prince." Now anointed one is the Hebrew word for Messiah. There are no articles in the Hebrew at all. It is not "an anointed one, a Prince," but it is simply, "Messiah, prince." So what the angel says is, from the going forth of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem unto the coming of Messiah Prince would be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, or a total of four hundred and eighty-three years.

Now that is very precise, is it not? You do not find a more precise timetable of events anywhere in the Bible. If it began in 445 B.C., and you add to that four hundred and eighty-three years, to the exact month (because we know that the month in which the edict to rebuild Jerusalem was issued was the Hebrew month Nisan, which corresponds about to our April), then it brings us down to April, 32 A.D. It is necessary to allow for a four-year error in dating the birth of Christ (4 B.C. rather than 1 A.D.), and to use, as the ancients did, a year of 360 days rather than 365. If we work this out carefully, as certain chronologers have done, we find that the four hundred and eighty-three years (seven years short of the full four hundred and ninety), was fulfilled on the very day the Lord Jesus entered into Jerusalem riding on a donkey, with the multitude of disciples bearing palm branches in their hands going before him crying, "Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!" Thus he fulfilled Zechariah's prophecy,

"Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on an ass, on a colt the foal of an ass." {Zech 9:9b RSV}
---------------------------------
Daniel


Note how the trigger (if you wish) of the start of the first set of seventy weeks had something to do with and an event happening in Jerusalem.

And So 70 - (7+62) = 70 - 69 = 1. As mentioned earlier, Christian scholars don't know if the destruction of Jerusalem which took place in 70 After Christ (A.C.) by the Romans (people of the prince according to angel Gabriel PBUH, i.e. people of the Anti-Christ!) marks the
seventieth week. Daniel 9:26 can certainly mean that. Christian scholars, however, prefer to believe that this last week is the week which the Anti Christ will spend doing his work on this earth like so:

---------------------------------
"And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."
---------------------------------
(RSV, Dan 9:27)


Note how it says one week. But it could be another week that is completely unrelated to the two sets of the seventy weeks mentioned earlier. Could it not? As a matter of fact, I think that the first seventy weeks of years where indeed ended with the last (missing) week (of the first set) that was triggered by the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.C. Jerusalem seems to be always the trigger point. Please bear with me.

Here is a quote from PBS:
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PBS, headquartered in Alexandria, Virginia, is a private, non-profit media enterprise owned and operated by the nation's 349 public television stations. A trusted community resource, PBS uses the power of noncommercial television, the Internet and other media to enrich the lives of all Americans through quality programs and education services that inform, inspire and delight. Available to 99 percent of American homes with televisions and to an increasing number of digital multimedia households, PBS serves nearly 100 million people each week.
---------------------------------
Inside PBS


And concerning the Apocalypse, it has this to say:
---------------------------------
Death of the prophet Muhammad.

Ever since he had received his first visions in 610, the new religion of Islam had grown remarkably quickly. By 622, Islam had so disturbed the authorities in Mecca that Muhammad and his followers were forced to flee in the Hijra to Medina. But they returned just seven years later and captured Mecca. Over the next 100 years, Muslim armies would conquer most of the Middle East, North Africa, and Spain.

The apocalyptic significance of the rise of Islam is twofold. Growing partly out of Judeo-Christian monotheism, Islam quickly developed its own rich apocalyptic tradition. And its formidable empire--which included control of Jerusalem--put it on a collision course with Christianity, which would cast Muslims in the role of the Antichrist for centuries to come.
---------------------------------
Apocalypse


Can you believe it? Seven years after the Hijra (and this even according to an American source!), a most Holy place, Mecca, was recaptured. History records that it was anointed and cleansed from all the pagan stone gods that the people were worshiping, exactly like the Daniel verse prophesied!

But what was the trigger point? If we are talking any sense then there must have been a trigger point that marked the start of the second set of seventy weeks when everlasting righteousness, the sealing of both vision and the prophet, and the anointing of a most holy place was to start.

If the coming of the anointed one (Messiah in Hebrew, Masseeh in Arabic, Christos in Greek) was triggered by an event in Jerusalem (command to build the temple), and the first set of seventy weeks ended by another event happening in Jerusalem (destruction of the temple in 70 AC on the hands of the Romans, people of the prince to come), then there must have been yet another trigger point for the start of the second set of seventy weeks, and that that trigger point must also have had something to do with Jerusalem. Fair enough? Fair enough.

The Muslim calendar year starts at year 1 in 622 A.C., and the capture of Mecca is year 8 of the Muslim calendar. Calculate with me: 8-1 = 7 years, which is one week of years. And it is in this week that Mecca was anointed.

To get at the trigger point let us calculate again: 70 weeks of years X 7 years in a week= 490 years. And since the end point was 630 A.C., then the start point was 630-490 = 140 A.C.

Let us make the calculations based on a 360 day year as the ancients did =&gt; 365 - 360 = 5 day difference per year. Now =&gt; 5 x 490 = 2450 days error. Convert to years =&gt; 2450 / 360 (days per year) = 6.8055555 years error. And so the trigger point is actually 140 A.C. - 6.8055555 = 133.1944445, i.e. 132 A.C.

Can you think of any event in History that took place in or around 132 A.C. Did you know that Jerusalem was sacked again in 132 A.C.? Most amazing, no? Look up any history book or reference and you will read something like so: "Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus in 71 AD and sacked again in 132 AD and then rebuilt by Hadrian." (1)
--------------------------------- ----------------
End of quote.

(1) Crusades.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: eString ]

 

Eric B,


PART II,( continued from Part I above)

OBEY HIS VOICE
And so you see, the anointing of Mecca and it becoming a direction of prayer was in the plans and commandments of Almighty God, which Jews and Christians were/are supposed to follow, Eric.

But once they forsake Almighty God commandments and His Law then they are simply not obeying His voice. They are obeying the voice of some other “god”, Eric. Not that of Almighty God.


OBEISANCE DOES NOT EQUAL WORSHIP
Need I cite the numerous places in the Bible where people prostrate to each other and yet are not worshiping them?

-------------------------
[1] Genesis 037:009: “And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.”

[2] Genesis 043:028: “And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.”

[3] Exodus 018:007: ”And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent.”

[4] 2 Samuel 001:002: ”It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and so it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance.”

[5] 2 Samuel 014:004: ”And when the woman of Tekoah spake to the king, she fell on her face to the ground, and did obeisance, and said, Help, O king.”
-------------------------
Old Testament


And so even according to the Bible, obeisance is not always worship. In these cases it was nothing but an acknowledgment of humility. And in the case of that Satan incident, Satan refused to show humility and believe in the wisdom of Almighty God, who indeed will not, as you rightfully quote, share His praise or glory with any other. Jesus PBUH included!


SHIRK- OR TAKING PARTNERS WITH ALMIGHTY GOD
Almighty God teaches us in the Qur'an that the only sin that He does not forgive (if a person dies still holding such views that is) is taking partners with Him, i.e., doing Shirk.

---------------------------------
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
---------------------------------
"4.48": Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an)

Your own Bible confirms:
---------------------------------
"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that YE SHALL SURELY PERISH.”
---------------------------------
Deuteronomy 008 019

However, if one repents from doing that before he/she dies then Almighty God forgives even that most grevious of iniquities:

---------------------------------
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
---------------------------------
039:053 Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an)

The Bible portrays this matter (associating partners with Almighty God) through the most amazing parable: it refers to this act (believe it or not) as "a whoring!" This is not my invention. Read for yourself:
---------------------------------
034:015: "Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

034: 016: "And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods."
---------------------------------
(Exodus)


or:
---------------------------------
017: 007: "And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations."
---------------------------------
(Leviticus)


or:
---------------------------------
031: 016: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them."
---------------------------------
(Deuteronomy)

or:
---------------------------------
002: 017: "And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so."
---------------------------------
(Judges)


or:
---------------------------------
008: 033: "And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baalberith their god."
---------------------------------
(Judges)

And the most amazing:
---------------------------------
003: 001: "They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

003: 002: "Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.

003: 003: "Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
---------------------------------
(Jeremiah)

In fact this is exactly what Jesus PBUH meant when he told you about his second coming and the latter days:
---------------------------------
013 014 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

013 015 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

013 016 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

013 017 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
---------------------------------
(Mark, KJV)

Those who were "a whoring" with other gods (and get caught pregnant from them and giving suck to their children!) will have it big time! This includes men and women, mind you, as the verses above show. Do please take another look at Jesus' words: his warning is almost identical to the one the angels gave to Lut PBUH before Almighty God destroyed his transgressing people and their city! Don't wait Christ says. Flee to the mountains! Don't turn back!

WHAT IS INIQUITY
Iniquity is injustice. This act takes place when one is entrusted to judge in a matter and he/she takes the right of someone and gives it to another without (or despite) proof and rightful claim.

Guess what is the highest form of iniquity, Eric. It is taking the right of deity which is what is rightfully and uniquely God's (Almighty God's that is), and giving it to those who don't deserve it (Jesus PBUH, angel Gabriel PBUH, Buddha, Zeus, Anti-Christ, etc.), to those who never claimed it, and to those who even denied it. And even though no one can take anything away from Almighty God without His consent justly or unjustly, the fact still remains that by working that act of iniquity, people then would have taken away what was due to them of blessings and mercy and willfully substituted it with Almighty God's punishment (everlasting Hell). For Almighty God forgives all sins (all of them) except taking partners with Him.

And so, I put it to you that by worshiping a Tri-une God, Christians are working the gravest iniquity. The Qur'an confirms that:
---------------------------------
"31.13": And when Luqman said to his son while he admonished him: O my son! do not associate aught with Allah; most surely POLYTHEISM IS A GRIEVOUS INIQUITY.
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an)

You see whether they realize it or not, what Christians are effectively doing is equating Jesus PBUH, and the Holy Spirit (who the Qur'an preaches is angel Gabriel PBUH believe it or not) with Almighty God! Only Almighty God is the real God, all others are false gods.


Here is Almighty God warning them:
---------------------------------
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
---------------------------------
035.013: He maketh the night to pass into the day and He maketh the day to pass into the night. He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term. Such is Allah, your Lord; His is the Sovereignty; and those unto whom ye pray instead of Him own not so much as the white spot on a date-stone.

035.014: If ye pray unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you. On the day of Resurrection they will disown association with you. None can inform you like Him Who is Aware.
---------------------------------
(Translation, Holy Qur'an) (Emphasis mine)

Beware people! Jesus PBUH will do it, he told you he will:
---------------------------------
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: Depart from me, Ye that work iniquity.”
---------------------------------
(Matthew 7: 22-23).


Peace

 

estring,
The most abhorrent thing to a Christian is an unsaved infidel such as a Muslim, trying to interpret the Bible for the Christian. As Peter said: "which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2Pet.3:16). You do yourself no favor on this board by perverting the Scriptures in the way you do. You only convince us all the more, that if you continue in your ways you will meet with eternal damnation.
My favorite verse in the Koran is Jonah Surah 10:94, where Allah speaks to Muhammad,

"And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not of the waverers."
---So Allah instructs Muhammad to go to the Christians and the Jews, those who read the Scripture that were before his time, when he had any doubt about the things that Allah was saying to him. So estring, when you have any doubt about what Islam or Christianity teaches, just ask a Christian, he will tell you the truth. This what your Koran teaches.

Here is what the Bible teaches concerning the gospel:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

---Christ arose from the dead on the third day (vs.4).
He was seen of over 500 witnesses after his resurrection.
One of those was the Apostle Paul, who also saw him after his resurrection.
Do not deny Scripture.

DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
estring,
The most abhorrent thing to a Christian is an unsaved infidel such as a Muslim, trying to interpret the Bible for the Christian. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny how it never occurs to you that you are guilty of the exact same thing, when you try to tell Muslims what "their god" and "their religion" actually mean.

Don't believe me? Have a look:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
So estring, when you have any doubt about what Islam or Christianity teaches, just ask a Christian, he will tell you the truth. This what your Koran teaches.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the paradox of exclusivistic fundamental religions: they cannot see their own double-standard.



[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Omnedon1 ]

 

The Barbarian, earlier:

Hmmm... Let's take a look...
Protestants 11
George W. Bush 11
Jesus Christ 11

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Random words adding up to 11 or 666 are not the point. The point is that words, dates, etc. that have directly to do with events and things that related to Scriptural passages show God Almighty's prior knowledge of them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would think "Jesus Christ" would be applicable here. So are a lot of other things, many of which have 11 letters in them. The point is that you can only make your system work when you pick and chose which words you'll use.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This proves His existance, omniscience, and omnipotence, as opposed to the god of Islam.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since we've already shown that the God of Islam is the same God of Abraham we worship, it's kinda pointless,even if your system worked. And, as you just saw, it doesn't.[/b]

The Barbarian, earlier:
As noted before, Muslims worship the same God as we do, albeit with some misunderstandings, from our point of view.

---------

They worship the same God that WE do?! Not the same God I do. Any religion that denies the Deity of Christ, His bloody substitutionary death on the cross to rescue doomed sinners, His resurrection from the dead, the Trinity, salvation by grace, the authority of the Bible, etc. does not worship Almighty Jehovah. Not Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, nor any other perversion of Truth.

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have the same God. We differ in many things about Him, but we all worship him. If you do not worship Him, I am sorry for you.

It's time to stop worshipping numerology, and just let God decide for you.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: The Barbarian ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

You cannot possibly read Christ turning down the goodness that was offered to him, and yet go on to argue that Christ meant that he was/is God! ... But he explicitly says “why do you call me good?” Christ turns down the goodness that was offered to him. Which true perfect God is not good!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could say, "Why do you call me a Baptist?", but it would not mean that I am not a Baptist.

The Lord Jesus Christ absolutely DID NOT deny His Deity. He simply asked the man, "Why callest thou me good?" and went on to say, "none is good, save one, that is, God." (Luke 18:19)

The Holy Spirit says that Christ Jesus is God, but you reject God's testimony. Sir, you need to stop calling God a liar, and agree with the testimony of the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus before it is to late for you. The Lord Jesus said, "I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matt 12:31-32) "And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. ... He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (1 John 5:6-7, 10-12)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

And you say but Jesus was a man? But the word of God as found in the Bible says GOD IS NOT A MAN!

"GOD IS NOT A MAN that He should lie, NOR A MORTAL that He SHOULD CHANGE HIS MIND" (Numbers 23:19); the "Eternal One of Israel WILL NOT LIE NOR CHANGE HIS MIND: for HE IS NOT A MAN, that He SHOULD CHANGE HIS MIND" (I Samuel 15:29).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God was not a man (In OT times it in the present tense), but God "was made flesh" in order to die for your sins (John 1:14). "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..." (1 Tim 3:16) "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." (1 John 3:5) This brings to mind John 10:11 which says: "I AM the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." And this brings us back to the Lord's question, "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God" again.

Christ Jesus is God. He is from Heaven:

John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

John 3:31: "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all."

John 6:38: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

John 6:51: "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

Robert Squirs, an ex-practicing American Christian, now a devoted Muslim:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unlike Muslims Baptists believe is soul liberty, the right choose ones religious beliefs for himself. So Robert Squirs certainly has the right to deny the Truth concerning the Deity of Christ and the Holy Bible. However, it must be noted that no true "Christian" will deny Christ as you say he has. One like that would be Christian in name only.

Speaking the Truth is love,
John Henry

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: John Henry ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From my previous post:

Any religion that denies the Deity of Christ,
His bloody substitutionary death on the cross
to rescue doomed sinners, His resurrection
from the dead, the Trinity, salvation by
grace, the authority of the Bible, etc. does
not worship Almighty Jehovah. Not Islam,
Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism,
nor any other perversion of Truth.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have the same God. We differ in many things about Him, but we all worship him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even though God would "have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" He will not override anyone's will. "The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

Unregenerate sinners simply cannot worship God in spirit and in truth. Why? "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." When under conviction and enlightened by the Holy Spirit one may receive or reject Christ. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14) Without the Holy Spirit "natural man" with a his "carnal mind" always rejects Truth.

"For the wages of sin is death; but THE GIFT OF GOD is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:8-10)

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." (James 1:18)

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Pet 1:18-23)

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Now if you will let the Holy Spirit speak to you then you will see that the Christian who believes these verses do worship God Almighty, whereas Jews and Moslems who believe one is saved by works do not worship God at all.

Those who reject the Spirit's teachings (see my quote from a previous post above) are NOT worshipers of the Almighty God of the Bible. Therefore, your statement that Jews, Moslems and Bible believers all worship the same God proves to be false.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
If you do not worship Him, I am sorry for you....It's time to stop worshipping numerology, and just let God decide for you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

False charges from a carnal mind. Do I worship science, and prophecy also, because I believe they are evidences as to the validity of God's Word? Sir, I worship my Lord Jesus Christ, my Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One.

Speaking the truth in love,
John Henry

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: John Henry ]