Is Allah a different god?

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS
The problems between Christians and Muslims in the Middle East are in the realms of your wishful thinking, I am sorry to say. It was on CNN that a Pakistani Christian Priest conceded that NEVER BEFORE that incident you refer to were Pakestini Christians prosecuted in Pakistan. Sure you can claim what you wish, but words are cheap. We need proof in support of your wishful claim, ones that now will have to discredit those first hand accounts of native Christians!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read about Christians persecuted in Islamic nations here: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24886

For specific persecution of Christians in Pakistan see: http://hem1.passagen.se/dpaul/reports/fa970215/paul1.htm
http://hem1.passagen.se/dpaul/reports/mi971101/paul1.htm

You need credible information. A Pakistani priest may have said, "Such an incident," or that he had never personally witnessed "such an incident." But to say that such things have never happened in Pakistan before this time is a blatant lie, deliberate misinformation, or complete and utter ignorance and naivete. Take your choice. I can give you all the proof you want for the persecution of Christians in Pakistan. I lived there for a number of years. I witnessed it firsthand. I will be going there again shortly. There have been more Christians that have been martyred for their faith in the 20th century, then in any other previous century.
DHK

 

[John Paul]

OK, as a Muslim, I worship the One True Lord our God. As Pat has pointed out it is the same God as Abraham, which is the same God of Noah and Adam before him. It is the same God of Moses and yes the same God of Jesus (Praise be to them).

We, just as the Unitarians, do not believe in the Holy Trinity. We do not believe Jesus is the Lord. We do believe Jesus was a great man & a Prophet of the One True God.

BTW, Islamic militants didn't fly those jets into the WTC & Pentagon- fanatics did.

 

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Paul:
OK, as a Muslim, I worship the One True Lord our God. As Pat has pointed out it is the same God as Abraham, which is the same God of Noah and Adam before him. It is the same God of Moses and yes the same God of Jesus (Praise be to them).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, To put it blutly but truthfully, Muslims worship a demon-inspired caricature of the one and only true God. The one and only true God is the God presented in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, all 66 books inspired of God. That God is Jesus Christ incarnate. Your blasphemous statements about God and Jesus Christ, and your rejection of the deity of Christ is sending you straight to Hell.
Had I said any of this in the nation of Pakistan I would be accused under the blasphemy laws of that nation and be sentenced to death. Who is the terrorist? And who is telling the truth?
DHK

 

[DHK]

estring: In case you never had the chance to read it, this comparison was posted in another thread some time ago:

A COMPARISON BETWEEN MUHAMMED AND JESUS CHRIST
By George Zeller and Steve Van Nattan


Mohammed was the prophet of war;
Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith;
Christ's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Timothy 4:7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels";
Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Timothy 1:13-15).

Mohammed was the taker of life;
Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands;
Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Mohammed's method was COMPULSION;
Christ's aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed practiced FORCE;
Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29,35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR;
Christ is a DELIVERER (Col. 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Mohammed conquered his enemies with the sword;
Christ conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!";
Christ said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Romans 3:15-17);
Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Ephesians 1:7).

Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!";
Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels;
Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Colossians 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest;
Christ constrained people by love (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his god;
Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9).

Modern day disciples of Mohammed respond to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets;
Modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were "Christians" in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder;
Many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Romans 12:17-21).

Muhammed said the Koran is authoritative only in Arabic, and only in his dialect;
The Bible is authoritative in many languages around the world, for God knows all things and can inspire His Word in more than one language.

Muhammed hated music;
Jesus and His disciples sang hymns, and the Apostle commanded the Lord's Church to sing. (Matthew 26:30, Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16)

Muhammed allowed that a Mullah, Imam, or Mufti of Islam can be a terrorist and moral animal like Osama bin Laden;
The Bible requires that a leader in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ must be above reproach, and when this is not true, Christians demand such a fallen leader be removed from leadership. (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 5:19-20)

Islam calls on its followers to observe Five Pillars, while all other aspects of life can be vulgar and not affect the Muslim's prospects in Paradise.
The Bible calls on the Christian to submit to the total change of his life by the Spirit of God-- NO area of life and thought is the choice of the follower. (Romans 12:1-2)

The Muslim looks forward to eternity in Paradise where there will be virgins who are used for eternal perpetual copulation.
The Bible believing Christian looks forward to being with Jesus Christ and is delighted with that. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Muhammed said the witness of a woman was half the value of the witness of a man; and Muhammed said a women goes to Paradise because she satisfies her husband sexually;
The Bible teaches that a husband is to love his wife and be willing to die for her. (Ephesians 5:25)

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight;
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . .but now is My kingdom not from here" (John 18:36)

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A.Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369);
Christ ordered that the gospel be preached "to the Jew first" (Romans 1:16).

The Koran says, "Fight in the cause of Allah" (Qu'ran 2.244);
The Bible says, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood" and "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (Ephesians 6:12; 2 Corinthians 10:4).

The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5);
Christ said, "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

The Koran says, "I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers" (Qu'ran 8.12);
God inspires His terror into the hearts of believers (Isaiah 8:13).

The Koran (Qu'ran) is a terrorist manual which condones fighting, conflict, terror, slaughter, and genocide against those who do not accept Islam;
T he Bible is a missionary manual to spread the gospel of peace to all the world (Romans 10:15).

Mohammed's Mission was to conquer the world for Allah;
Christ's mission was to conquer sin's penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18).

Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet;
Christ pronounced Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matthew 24:11).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one God, Allah;
Christ claimed that He was God (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Islam is geocentric, that is, the whole universe is centered on the Kaaba in the Grand mosque in Mecca in Arabia, and all Muslims pray facing that direction;
Jesus Christ is the center of all Christian worship and fellowship, for He is "in the midst" where his saints meet anywhere on earth. (Matthew 18:20, John 4:22-23)

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED!
Christ's tomb: EMPTY!

Islam must be received, or you can be killed for rejecting it:
The Faith offered by Jesus Christ is for "whosoever will" to receive, and all men are permitted to reject it. (Revelation 22:17, John 3:16)

Those who leave Islam are killed in most Islamic nations;
Those who leave the true Church of Jesus Christ are allowed to do so with no revenge.

Now, is a Muslim submitted to Allah and Islam because he loves Allah?
NO!
He dare not leave Islam, and he is loyal purely out of fear.

The true Bible believer is loyal to Jesus Christ purely out of love.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.

This concept is 100% alien to Islam-- There is no love in Islam-- Only fear and hate.

 

[John Paul]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by John Paul:
OK, as a Muslim, I worship the One True Lord our God. As Pat has pointed out it is the same God as Abraham, which is the same God of Noah and Adam before him. It is the same God of Moses and yes the same God of Jesus (Praise be to them).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DHK:
OK, To put it blutly but truthfully, Muslims worship a demon-inspired caricature of the one and only true God. The one and only true God is the God presented in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, all 66 books inspired of God. That God is Jesus Christ incarnate. Your blasphemous statements about God and Jesus Christ, and your rejection of the deity of Christ is sending you straight to Hell.

John Paul:
I view living on this plane as 'hell' so you are correct. I also know that you don't get to decide who goes where and why.

DHK:
Had I said any of this in the nation of Pakistan I would be accused under the blasphemy laws of that nation and be sentenced to death.

John Paul:
Do you have a copy of the law that states that? Can you provide a link?

DHK:
Who is the terrorist?

John Paul:
You, for going to a foreign country and inciting the people.

DHK:
And who is telling the truth?

John Paul:
About what? The fact that other people detest people that try to change their PoV on God? That in fact these people have had it past their eyebrows with the people who try to 'convert' them that they finally passed laws against it?

People may associate Muslims with the so called 'Islamic Militants' but what about the association of Christianity with the KKK and white supremacy? What would happen to an Arab Muslim trying to teach the Qu'ran in deepest Mississippi? Or Alabama? Gee whiz look at what happened to Christians in those areas just because of their color.

Saying the USA is a religiously tolerant nation and actually being a religiously tolerant nation are very different.

 

[John Henry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

"...[You] are adding to the scriptures...!"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the Koran attempts to add to Scripture by claiming to be God's Word. However, unlike the 66 books of the Bible, it can be shown over and over again to be in error.

I took it for granted that readers would understand what I meant by using capital letters where the Lord Jesus Christ used His Name, "I am". I have NOT added to Scripture, but have simply emphasized the most important of Biblical truths. Christ Jesus is God, the Almighty. He said He was:

"I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev 1:8) "...Before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

JESUS A DEITY?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course Jesus Christ is God! That is what the Bible means where it says:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth THE LORD JESUS, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Rom 10:9)

That means to confess that He is your personal Lord, your God! Whoever does not believe this truth WILL go into eternal Hell fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

...Jesus explicitly denied deity (see Luke 18:18-20, Mark 10:17-19 for just a few). Note how he turns down the goodness that was offered to him.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Lord Jesus Christ never denied deity. Not in the verses you site nor anywhere else in His Word. In the passages sited above the Lord simply said, "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God." (Luke 18:19)

The implication here is that Christ is God.

The Bible makes it plain that Christ Jesus is God:

John 1:1-3, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten
of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

1 John 5:7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father,the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Hebrews 1:1-3: "God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the
right hand of the Majesty on high."

The Bible also makes it clear why God became flesh:

Hebrews 10:4-6, 9-10, 12: "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. ... Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. ... By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ... But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

Jesus ... even referred to Almighty God as his God (John 20:17)! Christ even prayed to that God! (See Matthew 26:39). Note how he prayed like Muslims do!

The question now is thus: How can a worthy "God" deny deity, confess his loyalty to Almighty God, and even pray to Him? Would a worthy God pray? Would any god pray to himself?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The real question is this: How can one deny the truth after it has been shown to him? The only contradiction in God the Son calling God the Father, "God" is in the carnal minds of lost people.

Mark 12:35-37: "And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly." (cf. Ps. 110:1)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eString:

Moreover, Jesus ... appears:
[1] Powerless: "I can of mine own self do NOTHING . . ." (John 5:30).
[2] Had no knowledge of the hereafter: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father " (Mark 13:32)
[3] Was ignorant of the seasons: 'And seeing a fig tree afar of having leaves, he came if happily he might find any thing there on. and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, FOR THE TIME OF FIGS WAS NOT YET." (Mark 11:13)
[4] Jesus ... as a thirsty "God'?: " . . (Jesus) saith, I THIRST." (John 19:28)
[5] Jesus ... as a weeping "god"?: "Jesus WEPT." (John 11:35) Remember that this is the shortest verse in the Bible! (Only two words)
[6] Imagine a "god" being tempted by the devil: "Where he (Jesus) stayed forty days, being tempted by Satan" (Mark 1:13)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You do err not knowing the Scriptures. When God became a man, He temporarily emptied Himself of some the attributes of His Deity.

Philippians 2:5-11: "...Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of
the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

God the Father glorifies God the Son; God the Son glorifies God the Father. God the Spirit likewise Glorifies the Son and the Father. God is One! He cannot deny Himself.

1 John 5:7-12: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ARE one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his
Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (cf. Isa. 55:10-11; John 17:17; Eph. 5:26)

It was a man who sold the world under sin; therefore it had to be a man to redeem what Adam sold (Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15:21-22). The first man when tempted sinned; but Jesus did not. Why? Because, God is sinless.

I hope that the below passage will not be the case with you when you die, but can tell that it is the case with you now according to your own denial of Christ Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12: "...they received not the love of the TRUTH, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

John 14:6: "Jesus saith ...I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Now you, sir, need to stop fighting against the Truth, and repent for your great sin of rejecting Christ, God in the flesh, who died for your sins. He loves you and wants to save you.

John 1:11-12: "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."

Renounce the false god, Allah, and the false teachings of the Koran, and receive the gift of salvation which is found ONLY in Christ Jesus! Do it now, before it is to late!

1 Timothy 3:16: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,received up into glory."

Speaking the Truth in Love,
John Henry

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: John Henry ]

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: John Henry ]

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: John Henry ]

 

[John Paul]

DHK:
The Koran says, "Fight in the cause of Allah" (Qu'ran 2.244);

Surah 2:244 "And fight in the Way of Allah and know that Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower"

Just exactly is your point with this verse DHK? How did David & Solomon command their troops to fight? What gave them the courage to fight?

DHK:
The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5);

This is not as it seems. Surah 9.4 "Except those of the Mushrikun (what DHK calls Pagans) with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported against you. So fulfill their treaty for the end of their term. Surelt Allah loves Al-Mattaqun (the pious & righteous persons)
So the 'Pagans' in Surah 9.5 must be the Pagans that are at war against Islam.

DHK:
The Koran says, "I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers" (Qu'ran 8.12);

Which is followed by Surah 8.13 "This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment."

Noah can attest to that.

Please stop picking and choosing Surahs from the Qu'ran if all you are going to do is misrepresent them.

 

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Paul:

DHK:
Had I said any of this in the nation of Pakistan I would be accused under the blasphemy laws of that nation and be sentenced to death.

John Paul:
Do you have a copy of the law that states that? Can you provide a link?

---Apparently you don't like to read links. I have already posted three of them. The last one especially gives you the information you are looking for:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"There in always a naked and sharpened Islamic Sword hanging on the necks of innocent Christians in Pakistan in the shape of the Law (Blasphemy Laws 295.B and 295.C of Pakistan Penal Code). If any person disgraces or insults the Quran, then he has to be punished by imprisonment for life (295.B) and likewise if any person writes, speaks, illustrates or does any action in a disgracing or insulting manner, then he or she shall have to face capital punishment, there is no fine or life imprisonment."

DHK

 

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Paul:

DHK:
Who is the terrorist?

John Paul:
You, for going to a foreign country and inciting the people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Religious minorities such as Muslims and Sikhs are permitted to come to our countries. And when they do they "demand their rights." Sikhs have demanded an alteration in the police uniform in Canada to accomodate their turban. Muslims have demanded an alteration in schools to accomodate the use of a scarf for women. It even goes so far that Transit Bus drivers demand that they be given the right to stop their bus at the exact hour of prayer and take time to pray to Allah while the rest of the passengers on the city bus wait for this charade. We accomodate the so-called "rights" of Muslims, sometimes going too far. Even a Muslim missionary propogates his religion freely on the campus of the university here. We live in a muli-cultural society.

But if I go to an Islamic country like Pakistan, are those "rights" reciprocated? I don't even have the freedom to speak freely and openly of Christ, except in those areas that are explicitly designated as Christian communities. It is against the law to try to convert a Muslim to Christianity. It is against the law for a Christian to try and convert a Muslim. It is against the law to say anything against the Koran or Mohammed. Yet look at the freedom you have here to say what you want against Christianity, to pull Scripture out of its context, to degrade Jesus Christ, to dishonor the Bible. Can I do these same things about Mohammed and the Koran in Pakistan? Not without the possibility of losing my life! You do have freedom in America to worship the way you wish. The kind of persecution you face, if any, is the same kind that we as independent Baptists face every day. America is a secular nation, and to one extent or another looks down on religious people. There is nothing new about that. Open your eyes and look at the real world.
See the Islamic Osama Ben Ladens of the world.
See the Islamic Yasser Arrafats and Hammas groups of the world, and their terrorism, and suicide bombers.
See the Islamic Saddam Husseins of the world trying to destroy entire nations of Kurds mercilessly with chemical warfare.
See the slave trade done by Islam terrorists in Sudan. Don't try to blame it on civil war. What's done just isn't civil at all. Bondage, slavery, deliberate starvation--in the name of Islam.
Open your eyes to the world of Islam.
There are over 87 different sects of Islam, but just because each sect of Islam doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean they are not Muslim, does it? Osama is still a Muslim by virtue of the fact that he believes the Koran and believes in Allah and Mohammed as his prophet. He just interprets the Koran differently than you do. Muslims are just as divided in their interpretation of the Koran as Christians seem to be in their interpretation of the Bible. But evangelical Christianity is not as divided as you may think it is. Your problem is that you like to quote modernists (unbelievers) and call them Christians. Your constant denial of the facts of the Word of God will ultimately lead you to eternal damnation--not my judgement, but God's. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15).
"Verily verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
DHK

 

[The Galatian]

I suppose that Osama would answer you by pointing to groups like the KKK and the Christian Identity Movement, both officially Christian.

But I have a number of Muslim friends, some of whom have, like Muslim clerics worldwide, condemned Osama's actions as contrary to Islam.

I never thought I'd agree with John Paul on anything, but here I am. Christians and Muslims have both committed a multitude of sins in God's name.

But most of them are good people after all, who want to live in peace and raise their kids to love God.

 

[DHK]

Barbarian,
Let's do a comparison:
To be a Muslim one must adhere to the five pillars of the Islamic faith:
1. Shahada: The Shahada is the Islamic proclamation that "There is no true God except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah."
2. Prayer (Salat): Prayer is performed five times a day. The first prayer is at dawn and the last at sunset.
3. Fasting (Saum): The month of Ramadan is the month of fasting in Islam. It is an act of worship where the faithful follower denies his own needs and seeks Allah. Usually, this fasting entails no drinking, eating during, or sexual relations during the daylight hours for the entire month of Ramadan.
4. Alms-giving or charity (Zakat): Charity given to the poor. It benefits the poor and it helps the giver by moving him towards more holiness and submission to Allah. Alms-giving is considered a form of worship to God.
5. Pilgrimage (Hajj): This is the pilgrimage to Mecca. All Muslims, if they are able, are to make a pilgrimage to Mecca. It involves financial sacrifice and is an act of worship. Muslims must make the pilgrimage the first half of the last month of the lunar year

All Muslims keep the five pillars of the faith. They all believe in the Koran. They all believe in Allah, and Mohammed is their prophet.

Contrast this to Christianity.
A Christian:
1. Follows Christ--is born again, has Jesus Christ as Saviour.
2. Believes the Bible as the inspired Word of God
3. Believes in the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ
4. Believes in the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
5. Believes in the sacrificial atonement of the blood of Jesus for the sins of the world.

All of your terrorists from Osama to Saddam to Hammas believe the same set of beliefs. They are Muslims. Some of them are peace-loving Muslims; some of them are not. That does not change their religion. They are still Muslims.
Once you weed out all the cults, sects, denominations, etc., that do not believe in the above essentials of the Christian faith, and still call themselves Christian, you are left with a relatively small group.

I am not sure what the "Christian Identity Movement" is, and I don't know who was involved in KKK organizations. I think you live in a very ethnocentric world. If I ask university graduates in Pakistan about those groups, they will never have heard of them. Because they are important to your American history does not mean they are important to the rest of the world's view of history. That point being made, a truly Biblical Christian, adhering to the beliefs above and having his life transformed by the Holy Spirit would never be a part of terrorism. There are plenty of Islamic states and governments that sponsor terrorism. Islam lends itself to such. Biblical Christianity does not/cannot sponsor terrorism. It is a faith that is based on love, demonstrated in the person of Jesus Christ, who so loved the world that He gave his life and died for it.
DHK

 

[The Galatian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>All of your terrorists from Osama to Saddam to Hammas believe the same set of beliefs.[/b]

The guy who set a small bomb to blow up an abortion clinic, with a delayed bomb to kill police and firefighters when they arrived was not a muslim. I think he fits into the "terrorist" category, don't you?

I think Tim McVeigh would fit there nicely. So would the radicals on both sides of the strife in Northern Ireland, who use bombs to blow up innocent civillians and children they happen to hate. Both sides are Christians, or claim to be. Keep in mind that Muslims claim that such acts are contrary to Islam.

Were the pogoms in Russia and Christian Europe the result of Islam? How many Churches in the US have been attacked by Muslim fanatics? When a church was bombed in Alabama, killing three little girls, it was a Christian who did it.

Do you suppose it was Muslims who attacked all those mosques in the US after Sept. 11? Or don't you consider that terrorism?

Do you think that the Red Brigades, the Weathermen, and all the other marxist terrorists were muslims?

No, my friend, terrorism is not a muslim characteristic. It is a human characteristic.

They are Muslims. Some of them are peace-loving Muslims; some of them are not. That does not change their religion. They are still Muslims.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are Christians. Some of us are peace-loving; some of us are not. That does not change our religion. We are still Christians.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Once you weed out all the cults, sects, denominations, etc., that do not believe in the above essentials of the Christian faith, and still call themselves Christian, you are left with a relatively small group.

Actually, the Apostle's Creed defines who is and who is not a Christian. But all the things you mentioned, and more are in the Apostle's Creed. The "born again" in Scripture means "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins". This is what the Apostles taught. Some churches have departed from the Apostles in some respects, but they are still Christians.

[quotI am not sure what the "Christian Identity Movement" is, and I don't know who was involved in KKK organizations. I think you live in a very ethnocentric world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly. These are just Christian fundamentalist terrorist groups. You would rather not think about them. To recognize these terrorists would require that you admit something about humans you would rather not admit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If I ask university graduates in Pakistan about those groups, they will never have heard of them. Because they are important to your American history does not mean they are important to the rest of the world's view of history.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure if you're saying that terrorists have to go to foreign lands to be terrorists, or if the KKK doesn't qualify because they didn't murder anyone who counted. I can't agree, either way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That point being made, a truly Biblical Christian, adhering to the beliefs above and having his life transformed by the Holy Spirit would never be a part of terrorism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of Muslims would say that about Islam. You have fallen into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There are plenty of Islamic states and governments that sponsor terrorism. Islam lends itself to such. Biblical Christianity does not/cannot sponsor terrorism. It is a faith that is based on love, demonstrated in the person of Jesus Christ, who so loved the world that He gave his life and died for it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the Crusades and the murder of jews, and the like were merely venialities? The deliberate spreading of smallpox among American Indians was nothing of consequence?

Oh yes, they weren't REAL Christians. But that's what the muslims say about the terrorists who claim Allah's blessing. Why are your protestations more significant than theirs?

When the Southern Baptists endorsed first slavery and then denying the right to vote and education to blacks, and opposed anti-lynching laws, were they not real Christians?(and yes, I know a later generation of Southern Baptists formally apologized for this great evil, which was a courageous and Christian, and admirable thing to do.

There is enough evil and terrorism to go around for both Christians and Muslims, that we should remove the beam from our collective eyes before we point out the mote in the eyes of others.

 

[John Henry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cricket:

Allah & God are nonexistent, so Allah and God are indeed the "same"; both 'not there'.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Cricket, I hope the below article will help you.

John Henry

INTERNAL BIBLICAL EVIDENCES
By John Henry

TABLE OF CONTENTS

INTRODUCTION
THE ANCIENT BABYLONIAN NUMBERING SYSTEM
ELOHEEM AND ALEPH / TAHV IN GENESIS 1:1
JEHOVAH'S MENORAH IN THE TORAH
GOD'S NAME AND THE NUMBER EIGHT
SEPTEMBER 11TH & THE NUMBER 11
CONCLUSION
NOTES


INTRODUCTION:

God has made salvation from Hell very simple. It all depends on what we do with His Word, the Bible, and it’s testimony concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible alone; not the Koran, not the Book of Mormon, not Ellen G. White’s writings, nor any other book on the face of the Earth, but the Bible only contains the words of eternal life. Note these bold Biblical statements:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” (Ephesians 2:8) “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” (Romans 10:17) “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.“ (1 Peter 1:23) “Of His own will begat He us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.” (James 1:18) “He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 1:11-13, 3:5-6). “For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:10-11)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ... He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.“ (John 3:16, 18, 36). “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” (1 John 5:9-12)

Neither does God require blind faith. He has provided an abundance of evidence to prove His Word. The evidences that prove the trustworthiness of the Christian Bible are beyond dispute. There are many evidences that prove that there is a loving, all knowing, all powerful, eternal, self existing, righteous God. Some of the evidences that prove this are: the scientific accuracy of the Bible, specific fulfilled prophecies, the changed lives of those who believe it, etc. Provided below are a few example of internal evidences that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible and God are true and faithful.

THE ANCIENT BABYLONIAN NUMBERING SYSTEM:

J. R. Church came up with a formula based on the ancient Babylonian numbering system that was based on increments of 6 rather than 10 or 12 which we use today. Ancient numbering systems used the letters of their alphabets as numbers also. If we apply the Babylonian system to our English alphabet we get some interesting results. Here is the formula:

A=6
B=12
C=18
D=24
E=30
F=36
G=42
H=48
I=54
J=60
K=66
L=72
M=78
N=84
O=90
P=96
Q=102
R=108
S=114
T=120
U=126
V=132
W=138
X=144
Y=150
Z =156

If we apply this formula to add up some key words, we get some very interesting results. For example:

All people "are of [their] father the devil" (John 8:44), at least until they have their sins "blotted out" (Isa 44:22), because "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23) so they naturally have the number of the Beast: Using the above formula let's test this with the words PEOPLE SIN:

P [96] + E [30] + O [90] + P [96] + L [72] + E [30] + S [114] + I [54] N = 666

Likewise this formula shows us the doom of that murdering father of lies, Satan, the devil, who is also called Lucifer. The Bible says:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought DOWN TO HELL, to the sides of the pit." (Isaiah 14:12-15)

Add these up for your self to see:

1. LUCIFER HELL = 666
2. DEVIL SHEOL = 666
3. LUCIFER HADES = 666

The Bible has this to say about the number 666:

Revelation 13:18: "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding COUNT the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

That word "count" comes from the Greek word "psephizo" (Strong's #5585). Strong's Concise Greek Dictionary defines it thusly: "[Greek. 5585] psephizo...(generally) to compute: -- count." The On Line Bible Dictionary defines it like this: "... psephizo ... to compute, calculate, reckon ..."

To "count" means to "compute" as with a "computer." Guess what the sum of the word COMPUTER is? You got it. It's 666.

"And [the False Prophet] deceiveth them that dwell on the earth ... ; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast.... And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." (Revelation 13:14-17)

There are also other interesting word combinations that total 666:

MARK OF BEAST = 666

NEW YORK = 666

DRAGON POPE = 666

SATAN HINDU = 666

DEVIL GENE MAN = 666


ELOHEEM AND ALEPH / TAHV IN GENESIS 1:1:

In Hebrew Genesis 1:1 reads like this, except from right to left:

1................2..........3.........4........5.............6........7
"beresheet barah Eloheem eht hashamayim vaeht haeretz"

Which translated into English is:

[beginning] [created] [God] [aleph/tahv] [heavens] [and] [earth]

The first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet are "aleph" and "tahv" respectively. They are to Hebrew what A and Z are to English and also correspond the Greek "alpha" and "omega". Together the "aleph" and "tahv" are pronounced "eight". Rabbinic scholars call this word, "the word of creation". In Genesis 1:1 "eight" is translated along with "Eloheem" as "God". All this helps us understand John 1:1-3 and Revelation 1:8 much better.

John 1:1-3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

In Revelation 1:8 the Lord Jesus says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Clearly the Word who became flesh (John 1:14) is found in the very first verse of the Old Testament. Clearly Christ, the Word, is Almighty Jehovah of the Old Testament, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Also note that the "aleph" and "tahv" is the center word in Genesis 1:1 forming an Hebrew menorah of sorts. The Menorah of the Old Testament Tabernacle and Temple had seven lamps on it. Three on either side pointed in toward the center servant lamp that was used to light the other 6 lamps. This gives added meaning to John 1:4-5 and Revelation 1:12-13:

John 1:4-5: "In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

Revelation 1:12-13: "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the MIDST of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man...."


JEHOVAH'S MENORAH IN THE TORAH:

It is very interesting that there is a five pronged menorah found in the five books of Moses. These first five books of Moses, the Law, are called the "Torah" in Hebrew. There are specific words encoded in the opening paragraphs of these five books. By counting every fifty letters in Genesis and Exodus the word "Torah" is spelled out. Beginning with the first "tahv" and counting 50 letters you come to the letter "vav"; then counting another 50 letters you come to "resh"; and counting another 50 letters you come to a "hay". This spells the word "Torah" (Law) in Hebrew. Similarly in Numbers and Deuteronomy the word "Torah" is spelled out except it is spelled backwards beginning with the "hay", then the "resh", then the "vav", and finally the "tahv". The letters are at 50 letter intervals in Numbers, but 49 letter intervals in Deuteronomy. It is as if the Law in Genesis and Exodus are facing inward toward Leviticus, and the Law in Numbers and Deuteronomy are facing backward to Leviticus.

In Leviticus there is a different word spelled out and at a different interval. Counting at 8 intervals beginning with the second letter in verse one which is a "yod" you get: "yod", "hay", "vav", "hay" which spells "Jehovah". [1]

Here is a graphic of it:

Torah &gt; Torah &gt; YHVH &lt; Torah &lt; Torah


GOD'S NAME AND THE NUMBER EIGHT

The sequencing of the letters that spell Jehovah in the first verse of Leviticus, and pronunciation of the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, "aleph" and "tahv" are both eight.
Numbers in the Bible frequently have special meanings. For example: 1 signifies unity and primacy; 2 is for division, difference, and can mean enmity; 3 shows completeness; 4 symbolizes the world; 5 means grace; 6 is the number of man; 7 is for perfection, and 8 is the number of new beginnings, resurrection, and infinity.
In Greek as well as in Hebrew the letters of their alphabets are used for numbers too. In Greek when the letters of the Lord's name, Jesus (meaning Saviour), are added together you get a total of 888. Not only so, but other names and titles of His holy name in Greek are multiples of 8. Observe: 1) Messiah = 656 [8 x 82], 2) Lord = 800 [8 x 100], 3) Son = 880 [8 x 110], 4) Saviour = 1,408 [8 x 176], 5) Christ = 1,480 [8 x 185], 6) Emmanuel = 25,600 [8 x 3200]. [2]


SEPTEMBER 11TH & THE NUMBER 11:

In his book, Number In Scripture, E. W. Bullinger logically and convincingly shows that numbers have specific meanings. For example, he uses the 10 commandments, tithing, the 10 plagues, 10 virgins, 10 parables of the Kingdom in Matthew, and 20 other examples to show that the number ten (10) "signifies the perfection of Divine order" (pp. 243 - 250). Likewise he shows that 12 signifies "governmental perfection" using examples of the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 apostles and 7 other examples (pp. 253 - 255).

On page 251 Bullinger says, "If 10 is the number which marks the perfection of DIVINE ORDER, then 11 is an addition to it, subversive of and undoing that order. If 12 is the number which marks the perfection of DIVINE GOVERNMENT, then 11 falls short of it. So that whether we regard it as being 10 + 1, or 12 - 1, it is the number which marks disorder, disorganization, imperfection, and disintegration." Bullinger gives several examples for the number 11, among them:

* Evil kings Jehoiakim (2 Chron 36:5-6) and Zedekiah (Jer 52:1-7) both reigned 11 years before Nebuchadrezzar carried them away into captivity.
* It was in the 11th year of the Babylonian captivity that Ezekiel prophesied of the fall of Tyrus, (Ezek 26:1-5) and Egypt (Ezek 30:20-26).
* The 11 dukes of Edom (Gen 36:40-43) who were related to Israel, but different in government and order.
* The 12 sons of Jacob minus Joseph ("one is not" - Gen 42:13, 32) without whom the other 11 would not have survived.

Now note the number 11 as it applies to the terrorist attacks of September 11th:

* The date of the attack: 9/11 = 9 + 1 + 1 = 11
* September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11
* After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.
* The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11
* Flight 11 had 92 on board: 9 + 2 = 11
* The Twin Towers standing side by side look like the number 11
* New York City has 11 Letters
* Flight 77 hit the Pentegon: 7 x 11 = 77
* The Pentagon has 11 Letters
* Afghanistan has 11 Letters
* 119 is the area code for Iraq / Iran: 1 + 1 + 9 = 11
* 911 is the number to call in case of emergency: 9 + 1 + 1 = 11
* Psalm 11 describes the events of September 11, 2001

Is this just coincidence, or was it designed of God?


CONCLUSION:

Coincidences? Of course not! The law of probability forbids that. These are evidences that God has built into of the Greek, Hebrew, and English alphabets, and into history as evidences to the trustworthiness of His Holy Hord and to the fact of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

These facts also refute the false teaching of Islam and show that neither eloah, nor elaw, nor allah is the holy Name of God. Mohammed's is proven to be a false prophet for teaching that God has no son, and for adding to God's holy Word, the Bible.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20)

"I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy name for Thy lovingkindness and for Thy truth: for thou hast magnified Thy Word above all Thy name." (Psalm 138:2)


NOTES:

1. J. R. Church and Gary Stearman, The Mystery Of The Menorah, pp. 34 -37; Prophecy Publications, P. O. Box 7000, Oklahoma City, OK 73153, 1993.

2. E. W. Bullinger, Number In Scripture, pp. 203 - 204, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, MI 49501, 1967.

By John Henry, 1 January 2002

 

[The Galatian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On page 251 Bullinger says, "If 10 is the number which marks the perfection of DIVINE ORDER, then 11 is an addition to it, subversive of and undoing that order. If 12 is the number which marks the perfection of DIVINE GOVERNMENT, then 11 falls short of it. So that whether we regard it as being 10 + 1, or 12 - 1, it is the number which marks disorder, disorganization, imperfection, and disintegration."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... Let's take a look...
Protestants 11
George W. Bush 11
Jesus Christ 11

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Coincidences? Of course not! The law of probability forbids that. These are evidences that God has built into of the Greek, Hebrew, and English alphabets, and into history as evidences to the trustworthiness of His Holy Hord and to the fact of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like prune product to me. As noted before, Muslims worship the same God as we do, albeit with some misunderstandings, from our point of view.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: The Barbarian ]

 

[Omnedon1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Henry:
Add these up for your self to see:

1. LUCIFER HELL = 666
2. DEVIL SHEOL = 666
3. LUCIFER HADES = 666
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But amazingly, only in English. If I were German, or French, or Arabic, these same words would have different numeric values.

I guess it's John Henry's position that God and Jesus speak English, 'cuz that's the language that results in such clever numerical "signs".

 

[donnA]

I have to admit I didn't read 4 pages if posts on this subject, but after reading a few I just wanted to say, the muslim god can not be the same god as our God, the God of the Bible, no matter what anyone calls 'it', because the muslim god is not a Trinity with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being God also. This should be the bottom line, who is Jesus, if they do not call Him God, a part of the Trinity, an equal with God, then the IT they call god, is not the Bible's God, my God.
Thats the test.

 

[Omnedon1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
I just wanted to say, the muslim god can not be the same god as our God, the God of the Bible, no matter what anyone calls 'it', because the muslim god is not a Trinity with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being God also. This should be the bottom line, who is Jesus, if they do not call Him God, a part of the Trinity, an equal with God, then the IT they call god, is not the Bible's God, my God.
Thats the test.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then by that definition, the Jewish god (Yawhweh) is not the same as your god. Since they also don't recognize that Christ exists in a Trinity relationship with the Hebrew god.

But somehow I doubt you will admit the consistency of this.

 

[DHK]

Barbarian
Rom.1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the BARBARIANS; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
---Did you choose the name "Barbarian" because you know of your need of the gospel. By your posts here and on the Creation/evolution forum I would assume that you are either an agnostic or atheist. At any rate you are too ashamed to identify yourself on your profile. As an unbeliever 1Cor. 2:14 applies to you:

1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
---Your post reflects a complete misunderstanding of Christianity. The Apostle's Creed does not define Christianity, it arises out of Catholicism. The natural man (unsaved, not born again) receives not (does not understand) the things of the Spirit of God (spiritual things).
---You have a complete misunderstanding of what it is to be born again. That has nothing whatsoever to do with baptism. Water is purely symbolic. It has never washed away anyone's sin. And baptism is always carried out after one receives the gift of salvation, after one believes, never as an infant, never before he is able to believe the gospel. There is no incident or example anywhere in the Bible of any infant ever getting baptized. We have no Biblical precedent for it whatsoever. A man is born again by putting his faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. He is born again by the Spirit of God. He is born again by the Word of God, which the water symbolizes.

1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
---We are born again by the Word of God, as this verse plainly says. By the Word of God, and the Spirit of God (John 3:5).

You did not read my analogy close enough. All Muslims, from Osama to your nest door neighbor believe the same body of doctrine--the five pillars of the faith, the Koran, Allah, Mohammed. In this basic body of belief they do not differ.
That cannot be said of so-called Christendom. Those holding the basic tenets of Christianity as I have set forth (and that is only a few of them--by no means any thing extensive), would not include most of the groups you have mentioned. Your attack on Biblical Christianity is most pitiable.
---Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian.
---The Crusades were not Christian. They were done under the guise of Catholicism, which again is not Christian, and never has been.
---The KKK may have held to some orthodox doctrine. That didn't make them true Christians, and doesn't mean that they were born again or saved (#1).
---Likewise for your Christian Identity Movement.
---Likewise the spread of smallpox among the Indians was not done by Christians.
---Get your facts straight before you start posting a lot of diatribe. I stated and defined my position first. Don't redefine it. Work within it. Christianity is a faith, a relationship with Christ based on love. Islam is a religion, a religion based on works, works that in many cases sponsor terrorism as an means to their end.

Your comparison of southern baptists and slavery is non sequitor. Islam always has had slavery and still does til this day. Look at Sudan. Even the servants in Pakistan are treated as slaves by many of the Muslims. There was slavery in the Bible. Paul did not preach against the slavery issue. He knew that the gospel itself would eventually bring freedom to mankind, both spiritually and physically. And so it did. Read the Book of Philemon. Onesimus was granted not only his freedom, but was made free in Christ, a far more important freedom. Don't point your finger at the Baptists when you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.

DHK

 

[DHK]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Omnedon1:

Then by that definition, the Jewish god (Yawhweh) is not the same as your god. Since they also don't recognize that Christ exists in a Trinity relationship with the Hebrew god.
But somehow I doubt you will admit the consistency of this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. The Jewish God is not the same God. God incarnate (Christ) came into this world almost 2000 years ago, and John 1:11 says "that his own received him not." Jesus Christ, as the Messiah of the Jews, was rejected by his own people. Christ as God was rejected by the Jews. Christ is God! The Jews do not believe this. The difference is that the Christian knows that there will be a future date when the nation of Israel will turn to Christ and accept Him as their Messiah. "And so all Israel shall be saved" (Rom.11:26). Right now they have rejected Him, but sometime in the future (it may not be too far off) they will accept Him.
DHK

 

[Omnedon1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
You are right. The Jewish God is not the same God. God incarnate (Christ) came into this world almost 2000 years ago, and John 1:11 says "that his own received him not." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, we are not talking about Christ. We are talking about god, Yahweh. Your entire post discusses Christ.

THe question remains: is the person that the Jews refer to as G*d, or JHVH, or Yahweh, the same person as the New Testament describes as God?

If "yes", then the standard of evidence presented earlier is broken.

If "no", and they are not the same god, then why does the NT assume that the Jewish god is the same as God the Father of the Trinity?