DHK
Kindly allow me to say that your post is full of misinformed second hand information.
FALSE ASSUMPTIONS
It seems to me that your post rests on three false assumptions: [1] That what you claimed about Islam and Muslims is true, and [2] That because these things are true that then the Allah of the Qur'an is not the one the word of God as found in the Bible preach about, and that finally [3] that Jesus 'is' God (as the word of God in the Bible reveals), and is thus not Allah of the Qur'an.
FLAWED LOGIC
For the sake of the argument ONLY, let me grant you that what you claimed in the first assumption is true. How can that then aid your theory that the God of the Qur'an is not the Almighty God that talked with Moses PBUH?
You see whether you realize it or not, you are employing that flawed logic mentioned above:
I don't like it, therefore it is not the truth. This is NOT a valid test for the search and adoption of any truth. Your opinions (as well as mine I assure you) are inconsequential when the matter pertains to the reason and wisdom behind the commandments of Almighty God.
When a soldier receivers an order, he never questiones the wisdom behind the order. This is simply not his business. And if you insist on knowing why, let me tell you that he simply does not see the big picture. The commander does.
The army thus provides a mechanism for making sure that the commander was the one who issued the order. And having made sure that the order has come from the commander (as opposed to from the enemy), the soldier is then expected to obey, no questions asked.
And so (and like Helen's friend) you are approaching your search (if at all) backwards! Studying and struggling with the commandments IS NOT a valid vehicle for finding the truth and dismissing the lie. Finding who Almighty God is must be the first task. You, on the other hand, are trying to see if the commandements are suitable and then we are seeing you declare: “This set of commandment seems ridiculous, and thus this doctrine is false.” And you seem to continue to argue that: “This commandement seems fine with me, and thus this doctrine is the truth.”
Well, allow me to say that this is a futile illogical endeavour that WILL MOST PROBABLY NEVER lead anyone to the true God or His truth!
If the
liking logic is THE LETMUS TEST of finding God and His truth, then go ahead and worship whatever you
like! No, DHK. This is not the way to go.
Additionally, and also if we grant you (and only) for the sake of argument that what you assume in [1] is true, are you then going to judge a belief by what its adherents practice at some X point in time? This too is not the way to go. One judges a belief by what it preaches, not by what its adherents say it preaches! For like it or not, your approach is a misguided one that will lead to everywhere but to the truth. You see if one were to follow your flimsy logic, one would then argue that the true religion of God condones the worship of statues of stones. And that thus it is false! After all the Children of Israel and at one point in time did worship Baal!
99 ATTRIBUTES, LOVE IS NOT ONE OF THEM?
But having said that, let me humor you anyway and show you that even your first assumption was false to start with. This claim you make is an OUTRIGHT LIE! Or shall I say an indication of the now infamous second-hand information trap that most Christians seem to be very willing to fall into.
Need I remind you that Almighty God is PERFECT, even according to the Muslim teachings. And as such He is also a Loving God. But to refute your rhetric, one of the ninty nine attributes you mentioned is indeed “Wadood.” In my Arabic-Arabic dictionary this word is defined as follows: “(Wadood)
the loving.” (
Mukhtar El-Sahah, by Muhammad El-Razi, Arabic Book House, 1981).
THE MORALE?
You can sure claim from here until the end of time that the camel is the king of the jungle. That is very easy to do. However, the mere notion that you can make such a claim DOES NOT make your claim a valid one! We need proof! You have provided none. Not that you would have had any to provide, even if you tried. After all, these attributes are there for all to read. And their meanings are also availalbe for all those interested in honest research.
Another point is that you should never rely on second hand information in matters of eternal life and death, such as the one we are discussing here.
THE US, AND MUSLIMS
The same thing here. That the US claims it is not waging war on Islam does not autamically mean that she is not. Words are cheap as you and I know.
If a person had lived in the time of the Scribes and Pharisees and asked them why were they making life difficult for the Messiah of God, they would have probably told him that they were not waging war nor prosecuting the Messiah! They would most probably have claimed that they were protecting their way of life, the true religion of God!
But you and I know that the Scribes and the Pharisees were practicing the very thing they would have very easily denied doing! And so mere words and claims, not to forget national pride makes nothing right. Many Muslims believe (some would argue rightfully so) that the United States has been and and for quite some time now repeatedly prosecuting Muslims. Not that I can do anything about it. You be the judge.
How can you explain to these Muslims that the USA is not waging war on Islam when it is THE ONLY nation that backs Israel in the Security Councel with its Veto when almost all countries agree that what Israel continues to do is illegal, if not criminal? How can you explain to these Muslims that the USA does not wage war on Islam when they see it aiding Israel in its acts of injustice by providing weapons, technology, investment, and foreign aid, not to forget moral support to the inhumane acts that Israel has been invloved in since its inception?
How can you explain to these Muslims who see starved Iraqi Children looking like ghosts in the laps of their helpless mothers, Palestinian kids blooded everyday by (you guessed it) American weoponary that the USA is not waging war on Muslims? “Why is it”, these Muslims ask, “that when a Muslim country acts in violation of some law that the mighty USA is then trigger happy, but when Israel acts a million times as wicked that the USA then turns a blind eye and even blames Muslims?”
This is not an issue that can prove or disprove any deity, pal! This issue has nothing to do with our discussion. But even so, put these matters in front of fair God fearing Christian and he too will be puzzled at the double standard.
After all how can you exlpain to anyone that if Pres. Bush can call the Taliban an accomplice in what Al-Qaaida did in NY (because they have aided, sheltered and protected them), that one can not then acuse the US with the same evil that the Taliban were condemned for? How?
CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS
The problems between Christians and Muslims in the Middle East are in the realms of your wishful thinking, I am sorry to say. It was on CNN that a Pakistani Christian Priest conceded that NEVER BEFORE that incident you refer to were Pakestini Christians prosecuted in Pakistan. Sure you can claim what you wish, but words are cheap. We need proof in support of your wishful claim, ones that now will have to discredit those first hand accounts of native Christians!
And if one were to imploy simple reason one would easily come to the conclusion that your thoery is in the realm of utter conjecture.
If it was THE Muslim norm to prosecute Christians in the Middle East then it follows that you would have found not one Christian still living there! But this is not the case! There are Christians in Nigeria, Pakistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Palestine, to name a few. I have read that Arab Christians (alone) number around 26 million. If what you say has one iota of truth in it then you would have never found these people breathing to this day. If what you claim was true, these people would have been either wiped out, or became Muslims themselves. The fact that they still living and practising their faith refutes your unsubstantiated remarks.
PALESTINIAN CHRISTIANS
In case you don't know, Palestian Christians insist that Jesus PBUH was Palestinian! To this day and age these people REFUSE to share a state with their Jewish bretheren in scriptures and prefer instead to join their Muslim neigbors in a Palestinian state of their own! Can you believe it! Dr. Hanan Ashrawi (among others!), a female member of the Palestinain National Council (effectively the Palestian Parliment) and a frequent guest on CNN and other news organizations, is a Christian!
If you were to visit the holy land you will find the most amazing thing. The keys to the door of the Chruch of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem are entrusted not to Christians, and not to Jews, no! They are entrusted to (of all people) Muslims! A Muslim family has been entrusted with the task of every day opening the doors of the Church to Chrisians and priests of all denominations. At night the Chruch is closed again and the keys are returned to that Muslim family. And this has been the case for generations!
And this is not dictated by Muslims! This arrangement is agreed by all Christians (Pope included) as they thought this would prevent any one denomination from being in full and absoulute control of the Church. How unjust can you be! Surely if these local Christians in one of the holiest Christian lands on this earth agreed with your misinformed missionary propaganda that they would have never trusted Muslims with their holy places nor would they have ever contemplated sharing with them a homeland of their own!
And do you know why local Chrisians of the holy land (and others in the Middle East) trust Muslims this much? Let me tell you why.
DEFEATING THE ROMANS
When the Romans were driven out of Jerusalem by Muslims, the Christian priests in charge of the city refused to talk and deal with the Muslim commander. They demanded to talk with the Muslim Khalifite, Omar Ibn Al-Khatab, who resided south in the Arabian Peninsula.
The Khalifite obliged. And refusing to take the advice of his councelors, he rode his camel in his Arabian cloths which reached just below his keens and started his way north alone through the desert to meet what Allah SW (Allah is the proper name of Almighty God, translated "The God", just as Eloyim is translated as Ho Theos i.e., "The God" in the "Septuagint," the Greek translation of the Old Testament which was done at least two centuries prior to the coming of Jesus), calls in the Qur'an the people of the Book.
Having seen the Muslim leader in such a humble sorry state, the priests could not believe that he was what he claimed he was. After all they were used to the fancy ways of the Romans. But after they were convinced, lo and behold the Muslim noon prayer was upon the Muslim Khalifite. Out of hospitality, the Christian priests invited him to pray inside that very Church which I urge you to visit. The Khalifite refused. He said, and I paraphrase: "I worry if I pray inside, Muslims will consider this place their own saying: Omar prayed here." And he politely apologized and prayed outside the Church, on the dusty floor. Can you imagine any triumphant ruler doing such a thing?
From that day onward the relationship between Muslims and Christians in that city (and that part of the world) florished. Did you know that these Christians that you say are prosecuted on the hands of Muslims fought hand in hand against the Crusaders! I am not kidding!
OUTRIGHT MISINFORMATION
The incidents in all those other places you mentioned (except Suddan) are clashes. The situation in Suddan is (even according to the United Nations) civil war. The population of the south wants to seperate from the country. Surely one cannot say that Spain is prosecuting the Basques if the Spaniards fought the Basque sepratists, or that the north of the United States was prosecuting the South in the American Civil war, etc.? Why then do you consider all those other cases legitate national struggles against seperatists, but when it comes to Suddan you then spin it to say that Muslims are Prosecuting Christians? Do you see why Muslims whole-hearly believe that you are waging war against them? You are being “unjust” is what they claim, and some would argue rightfully so.
Concerning the clashes in those other countries, however, let me say this. Clashes in English means that there are two sides and that these two sides clashed! That there is a Christian side to start with (and this after centuries of Muslim rule and the existence of mostly a Muslim majority)
is to your discredit! Persecution entails that one party is strong and the other is weak. But if they both are able to clash (as you yourself conceded) then you are making a false claim as regards prosecution.
If what you claim is fact, then only one side should be attacking and the other suffering. Moreover, there wouldn't have been a Christian side to start with! That they clash is not an indication that Muslims are prosequting Christians! For in the same time that Muslims are clashing with Christians, is the very same time that Christians are clashing with Muslims! Who started all this clashing is the question, and I don't suppose you have any hard proof in support of your hitherto unsubstantiated empty claims, or do you?
And did you know that Tariq Aziz, the Iraqi Foriegn Minister is a Christian! I bet you didn't know that, or did you? You are being utterly mislead for nothing but political purposes and to squeeze those dollars out of your pocket “to aid your fellow Christians!” Well I have news for you: Your tax dollars are aiding (for one thing) Israel murder Christians and keep worshipers out of Bethlehem! Rejoice!
SAUDI ARABIA
When you visit a country, you normally would obtain a visa. Every country has its own visa requirements. Is this not a fact? And so, if one were to visit the Chinese Republic of Taiwan and apply for a visa and the visa application stipulated that you do not recognize the Commmunist regime of mainland China, what would you do? If the need to visit Taiwan is that important then that you would most likely submit to the conditions stipulated in the visa application. If you do not like the conditions, then you can refuse to apply and thus not visit Taiwan. End of story. No one is forcing any person to visit any place, Taiwan and Mecca included, you see.
The same with Mecca in Saudi Arabia. If you wish to visit this holy place you have to submit to some visa conditions, namely: that you proclaim in public that there is no God except Allah, and that Muhammad PBUH is His prophet. By this you would become Muslim. If you don't like that condition, fine. No one is forcing you to visit Mecca! Where is the prosecution there! Did anyone force anyone to visit Mecca? Because it is only then that your claim would carry any logical weight!
If you actually agree to submit when visiting an X country that you are not to use drugs, then you are not expected to use them! If you use them IN VIOLATION of your visa conditions, then don't whine I am being prosecuted! You signed an agreement! And like all others, you and I will and must be held accountable.
And did you know that there are actually Gospel and prayer services done by priests for American soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia? Many of them (preists and soldiers) were introduced to Islam in such gatherings! And many did jump the Christian ship after listening to a Muslim preacher talking with a Bible in his hands. No fun intended. But if you think that Muslims are not allowed to own a Bible then you are (yet again) mistaken. Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to believe in all the scriptures that Almighty God has revealed. Emphasis is on His scriptures, as opposed to what you and others say are His scriptures. I myself have three versions of the Bible, if that will allay your concerns.
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In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
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002:135: They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)."
Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
002:136:
Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
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(Translation, Holy Qur'an)
WOMEN
Women are given that inheritance right only in special cicumstances! These circumstances are are when she (as a daughter of the deceased) has a brother (from the same). There are other circumstances when she inherits more than the man! That you forgot to mention of course!
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In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
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004:011 Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:
if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.
004:012 In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.
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(Translation, Holy Qur'an)
Please note how the father of the deceased (the grandfather, a man!) will in most circumstances get a share LESS THAN that of the daughter of the deceased (a woman!). Also note how (in verse 4:12) (yet another circumstance!) that a brother and a sister of a deceased will share in the inheritance! I am no scholar, but I have heared that in this circumstance THIS IS AN EQUAL SHARE!
You are picking and choosing! Almighty God is the most Just. Every circumstance has its Law. And because unlike her western counterparts, a Muslim woman is cherished and is not expected to provide at all for the house hold, Almighty God gives her husband a bigger share. He is thus expected to take care of his second half and their children without expecting any help from her, whatsoever! And so furnishing the home is the duty of the husband, as is all the other expenses. You name it, he has to provide for it, not the wife who can keep her inheritance invested never to touch it as long as she is married. And as such, it makes perfect sense that Almighty God aids that person in this most enormous of tasks.
WOMEN AND PROPERTY?
And (yet again) you are mistaken if you are hinting that Islam allows for no property for the Muslim women. Even before Islam, the Women of that region of the World had property. In fact Khadeejah PBUH, the first wife of the prophet PBUH, and at age 40 was one of the wealthiest if not the wealthiest persons in Mecca!
And as any objective person can read from above, it is by commandements of Almighty God in the Qur'an that women's properties, be they sisters, daughters, or mothers, are guranteed.
WOMEN IN THE BIBLE
Contrast all the above with what the Bible that you hold in your hands preaches about women:
[1] Forbidden to open their mouths in the Church: “. . for it is a SHAME for women to speak in the Church" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).
[2] Chop off her hands for saving her husband's life. (Deuteronomy 25: 11-12).
[3] Her husband to rule over her. (Genesis 3:16).
[4] The head of the woman is the man. (1 Corinthians 11:3).
[5] Man can sell his daughter. (Exodus 21:7).
I DARE YOU to quote anything from the Qur'an as regards treating women that comes close to what the Bible you hold in your hand preaches the society to do to them!
WHAT ABOUT POLYGAMY
Are you claiming that becasue the Qur'an
allows (as opposed to commands) the taking of more than one wife that because of that the God of the Qur'an is not the true God of the Bible.
Brace yourself:
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[1] Genesis 004:019: “And Lamech
took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.”
[2] Genesis 031:017: “Then Jacob rose up, and set his sons and
his wives upon camels;”
[3] There is even an EXPLICIT law about this in the Bible:
Deuteronomy 021:015 If
a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
Deuteronomy 021:016 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
Deuteronomy 021:017 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn,
by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
[4] 1 Samuel 027:003: “And David dwelt with Achish at Gath, he and his men, every man with his household, even David with
his two wives, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail the Carmelitess, Nabal's wife.”
[5] 1 Samuel 030:005: “And
David's two wives were taken captives, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail the wife of Nabal the Carmelite.”
[6] 2 Samuel 005:013: “And David took him
more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David.”
[7] 1 Kings 011:003: “And he (Solomon) had
seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: ...“
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O.T.
Must I go on? That you have amongest yourself invented a new Law (or choosen to disregard) the word of Almighty God that is in the Bible) is your choice. I can only refer you to read Matthew 015:009: ”But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
This matter is yet further proof that Christrians have now come to believe in the Anti of what the word of God and Christ Jesus PBUH preached. After all it is Jesus Christ PBUH himself in the flesh in the first person that said:
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5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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(Matthew)
And so the Messiah peace be upon him makes it crystal clear that if the Law allows for polygamy (and it clearly does) then he did not come to destroy what the law allows! He came to fulfill the law he said. Not one title (I repeat: not one title) shall pass from the law, he says, until this heaven and earth pass away! And if anyone (such as yourself) (these are his words!) shall break the least of these commandement and shall teach men so shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. These are not my words!
And thus, it should be evidently clear to any objective fair reader that based on this matter, the Qur'an, the word of God as found in the Bible, and the Messiah of God are in total agreement! Therefore, the God of Moses PBUH is not the God of the Qur'an?
Here is an interesting
Christian polygamy site, by the way.
ISLAM = PEACE?
Islam is Arabic for peace, surrender, submission. The word shares roots with the Hebrew “Shalom.” And thus Islam is Peace (This is what it means!). It is peace with Almighty God and utter surrender and submission to His commands, which if implemented (as all the prophets of God even in the Bible call for-- Jesus PBUH included!) WILL bring peace and justice to this world. National pride and national security interests bring iniquity to this world, and everything but peace. Ask those Christians in the holy land what they think.
I AM THE WAY
This is a quote from my reply to a Christian in another religious board:
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Please note that the verses you quoted are examples of duality. This takes place when any verse allows for a second interpretation. Please note that even from the Muslim perspective these verses make very good sense. You see, like all other prophets, Jesus PBUH had the capability to give eternal life to those Almighty God willed to save. Was not Moses PBUH capable of that? Was not any earlier prophet capable of that? Or are you claiming that the entire human population that dwelled on this earth prior to Jesus' birth were/are doomed to eternal damnation?
Indeed, and also because he is a prophet, even Mohammed PBUH is capable of doing the exact same thing:
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In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:
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"8.24": O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Apostle when he calls you to that
which gives you life; and know that Allah intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered.
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(Translation, Holy Qur'an)
Does that make Mohammed PBUH God? No!
The same with the John 14:6. Please note that Jesus is using a parable. But even then, he is still making perfect sense. Please note that Jesus says he is the way.
Since when was any "way" the final destination? Isn't clear to you that the job of Jesus PBUH (being the way) is to lead people to the final destination of Almighty God? Isn't it clear to you that if someone rejoices in the way and dances around the door and forsakes the destination that he/she will never reach Almighty God?
And so yes, Jesus PBUH indeed represented the way and the light and reward of eternal life to his contemporary followers. Just as Moses PBUH was the way and the light and just like Noah PBUH was the way and light, and just like Jonah PBUH was the way and the light and just like Lut PBUH was the way and the light. Could any of the followers of any of these prophets have (or would have) reached the final destination of Almighty God without the light and guidance that these prophets offered?
And no true worthy God prays to himself, Christian. He was a man you say? But your own Bible says God is not a man!
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End of quote
Please refer to my reply to John Henry & the Conjecture post below for a discussion of the other quotes you posted & your 3rd false assumption.
FINAL THOUGHT
Your approach to refuting the fact that Allah is the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Moses peace be upon them, and discrediting Islam or its teachings is irrational. Allow me to explain. It seems to me that Christian missionaries, and having found nothing wrong with the Muslim scriptures or the Muslim God, are trying to refute the rational thought behind specific Muslim teachings. Like you, they put their preconceived notions, prejudices, and tribal culture (their human often selective and subjective sense of what is politically correct and appropriate or not, etc.) on the one hand, and then compare all that to the beliefs and commandments that Almighty God makes in the Qur'an on the other hand. If they don't match, and they hardly ever do, then these people cry out: "See. It is a false doctrine. It is a fabricated religion."
Why? Because they don't like what it preaches! Since when did any human have ANY say in what Almighty God declares as right or wrong? Since when did the notion: "I don't like it, therefore it is not the truth" ever become a valid test for any truth?
If truth to you means that you should like it, then go ahead get rid of the Bible and sit down you and people of like mind and author a nice novel and make a religion out of it! This is what the church of Scientology did. For like it or not, the novel is there, inside your head, and it is from which you are reading to us that God is a man, a son of man, that Polygamay is not allowed, that the Law is now out the window.
Luke 006:046: "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
