Is Allah a different god?

Barbarian, earlier:
Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have the same God. We differ in many things about Him, but we all worship him.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Even though God would "have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" He will not override anyone's will. "The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see that both Islam and Judaism agree that we should repent and come to God.

(apparently random Bible Verses)

I could never understand why some people recite Scripture with apparently no relevance to the subject. It seems to be some kind of magical thinking, that chanting Scripture will make one more persuasive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now if you will let the Holy Spirit speak to you then you will see that the Christian who believes these verses do worship God Almighty, whereas Jews and Moslems who believe one is saved by works do not worship God at all. [/b]

No, that makes no sense. Jews and Muslims worship the God of Abraham, as we do. They do not accept the Trinty, as we do. But they still worship Him.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From my previous post:


Even though God would
"have all men to be
saved, and to come
unto the knowledge
of the truth" He will
not override anyone's
will. "The Lord is
... not willing that
any should perish,
but that all should
come to repentance."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

I see that both Islam and Judaism agree that we should repent and come to God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What Moslems, Jews, Catholics and all others must repented of is rejecting the Word of God, and rejecting Almighty Jahovah Himself (the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit). This is what is required in order to believe in the God of Abraham. Nothing else will do. He is the God of multitudes who Moslems, Jews, Catholics have murdered.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

No, that makes no sense. Jews and Muslims worship the God of Abraham, as we do. They do not accept the Trinity, as we do. But they still worship Him.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It may not make sense to the carnal mind of the natural man, but it makes perfect Biblical sense to believe that any religion that denies the Deity of Christ, His bloody substitutionary death on the cross to rescue doomed sinners, His resurrection from the dead, the Trinity, salvation by grace, the authority of the Bible, etc. does not worship Almighty Jehovah. Moslems Catholics, and Jews saying they worship the God of Abraham does not make it so. But if any Moslem Catholic, or Jew will allow the Holy Spirit speak to their heart and stop rejecting the God of Abraham and receive Jesus Christ as God and Saviour then they will begin to understand.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

It's not good to look to numerology, or magic, or arcane interpretations of Scripture for your faith.

I can see how much you want this sort of thing to be true, and how much you want to limit those who worship Him. But it just isn't that way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I want is not important. The facts speak for themselves.

First you say that I worship numerology and now you say that I believe in Magic?! It appears that you are intentionally trying to misguide people with absurd statements like that.

The Biblical interpretation of Scripture is arcane and understood only by few only because most people choose not to be enlightened by the Holy Ghost and receive Christ Jesus as their God and Saviour.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the WAY, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt 7:13-14)

"Jesus saith ..., I am the WAY, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

Do you believe that? It is impossible for anyone who does not believe that to worship the God of Abraham? Period!

The passages are more relevant than you might think. You would do well to go back and read my previous posts carefully.

Speaking the Truth in love,
John Henry



[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: John Henry ]

 

It may not make sense to the carnal mind of the natural man, but it makes perfect Biblical sense to believe that any religion that denies the Deity of Christ, His bloody substitutionary death on the cross to rescue doomed sinners, His resurrection from the dead, the Trinity, salvation by grace, the authority of the Bible, etc. does not worship Almighty Jehovah.

Moslems Catholics, and Jews saying they worship the God of Abraham does not make it so. But if any Moslem Catholic, or Jew will allow the Holy Spirit speak to their heart and stop rejecting the God of Abraham and receive Jesus Christ as God and Saviour then they will begin to understand.

It is precisely because you have hardened your heart against the Holy Spirit that you reject the God of Christianity, Judiasm, and Islam.

It is the nature of a cult to say "God is only with us". This is not something that infects only a few Baptists BTW. There are a few Catholics like that, and they are probably in every Christian denomination.

There are also a few Jews and Muslms like that. As I said, such people try to shut God off from other people, and succeed only in shutting themselves off from God.

Sin like that is its own punishment.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: The Barbarian ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Where is the sign in the three days argument you presented? How can the burial be a sign? If you bury someone for one day, or two days, or a million days then this is no sign, Eric. The sign (miracle) is that if you do something as was done to Jonah you expect him to die. Now, if he stays alive, then it is a miracle! When you throw someone into a raging sea, you expect him to die. If he stays alive, then it is a miracle! If a whale bites (the man left and right) and begins to swallow the man in that same raging sea, you expect him to drawn, be crushed and get killed. If he stays alive, it is yet another miracle! If he stays for three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, you expect him to suffocate and die. If he lives and cries to his God and prays IN SIDE the belly of the whale it is yet another miracle! It is a miracle of miracles! Many times over! And so staying ALIVE against all odds is the SIGN, Eric. If you hang someone and he dies, then there is no miracle! If you bury him and he dies, it is no miracle! Whether the time is one day or a million days. If he dies (for any number of days) then it is no miracle! However, if he stays ALIVE against all odds, then and only then it becomes a miracle. One like that of prophet Jonah PBUH.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, what I should have said is that his being risen is the real sign, and the number 3 added to that. The issue is not remaining alive while entombed, but rather coming out alive. It's the end result that is being emphasized. Being alive or dead during the three days has no significance. All the observers in the examples you mentioned will see is how the person comes out. Once again, if you insist it has to match perfectly, then Christ would have had to have been inside a whale. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption." (1 Corinthians: 15:42).

He continues: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians: 15:44).

And so indeed, even Paul admits that the resurrected are SPIRITS! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I say on another of my pages:
1 Cor.15 does go on to mention a "spiritual body" (v.40,44), but this is nothing other than the resurrection body, being "RAISED" after having been "sown" natural (death of the physical body). 2 Cor.5:1-8 and Phil.1:20-23 mention being "absent from the body and present with the Lord", and vice versa. But the Corinthians passage shows that this is actually another term for the resurrection; v.2: "we are CLOTHED with our HABITATION [margin: "dwelling"] which is from Heaven", when this earthly "house" (dwelling), or "tent", is destroyed. This is of course, the resurrection body. Paul further says that the hope is ,"not...to be UNclothed (disembodied), but to be FURTHER clothed (restored body) so that mortality (death) may be swallowed up by life". (v.4) It will be the same body, but being incorruptible, will be different. So Paul can describe it in these scriptures as being "out of the [present, corruptible] body".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
---------------------------------
2 Chronicles 007:014 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But note one crucial part of this: "Turn from your wicked ways" Do you know what this entails? Do you think just keeping some religious ovservances and trying to be good fulfils this? The Bible tells us "He who keeps the whole Law and offends in one point is guilty of all." (2:10) "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things written in the Book of the Law" (Deut. 27:26). You say "oh, God is merciful and gracious and knows we will sin", but that is not how the Bible says we shall be justified. Instead, that's what every liberal or lukewarm/backslidden person says when called to repentance. We want to do what we want, and some will even offer God a bunch of works (some of which God commanded, and many He didn't) to further try to buy their way into Heaven. But as Paul says, this is not attaining to the righteousness God had always demanded. In all of this, beginning with the Fall of Adam, the Bible is showing that what we have is more than just sinful acts, but a condition that prevents us from being able to fulfil God's Law.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Please note how the Bible reports Almighty God in the first person declaring that He SPAKE NOT, and COMMANDED NOT the fathers of the sons of Israel concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices! Emphasis on the verb “spake not.” Which means that anything that begins to constitute what we call speech is hereby denied!

According to Almighty God's first person words as reported in the Bible, what He asked them is clear and explicit: to obey His voice, His Law, and all His commandments-- a message repeated throughout the Bible <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, God did not immediately give the Law, but it soon became clear that man (as a whole) would not "obey His voice", and the Laws/commandments He had given so far. So then the whole Law was added. But that too did not cure man's condition of sin, and through this, God was showing us that we neede more than just laws or tempioral sacrifices. (BTW, though not commanded as periodic ceremony, God did require sacrifices, and of a specific type, before then. Just look at Cain and Abel.) Paul elaborates on al of this in various places. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
As to the general question of why, then kindly allow me to say that you are approaching your search the wrong way. One must not question the reason why, no. Rather one must question whether or not this is Almighty God that is giving the commandment or not. Otherwise, one would be questioning the wisdom of God, Eric. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My question of "why" is to address "whether" it is of God. People say all kinds of things in the name of God, and the Bible says we had better question it, from the scriptures.

And still, if people name themselves "servant of God", fine, but still, why must it be in Arabic?

"shirk":
Once again, if you understand what it means for Christ to be of the same "substance" as the Father, and be God and man at the same time, you will see He is in no way a "partner" with God. (But Islam does in several ways make man as a whole a partner with God.)
There are alot of misunderstanding in this issue. I have written a detailed treatise on it at:[Triune.html]

70 weeks issue:
It does not appear to me that there are two sets of weeks. That is just someone's interpretation. The OT often uses "parallelism" as a type of poetic languge (the Psalms are full of this), so there are often doubles, describing the same thing. An English professor can tell you what he would think it implies in English, but you would need a Hebrew professor.
Most other versions say "to seal visions and prophecy" You can't build an interpretation off of one translation. "to anoint a holy place" or "the holy of holies" is talking about the temple of God in His future Kingdom, not some new "holy city" in this same fallen world.

 

From my previous post:

Any religion that denies
the Deity of Christ, His bloody
substitutionary death on the
cross to rescue doomed sinners,
His resurrection from the dead,
the Trinity, salvation by grace,
the authority of the Bible, etc.
does not worship Almighty
Jehovah. ... But if any Moslem
Catholic, or Jew will allow the
Holy Spirit speak to their heart
and stop rejecting the God of
Abraham and receive Jesus
Christ as God and Saviour then
they will begin to understand.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

It is precisely because you have hardened your heart against the Holy Spirit that you reject the God of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do harden my carnal heart against the ecumenicalism that you teach. You are pushing an antichrist doctrine.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." (Proverbs 3:5-7)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

It is the nature of a cult to say "God is only with us". This is not something that infects only a few Baptists BTW. There are a few Catholics like that, and they are probably in every Christian denomination.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, you are saying that one can be saved without believing in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ as Islam and Judaism teach? Are you saying that one can be saved by their good works as Catholicism, Islam and Judaism teach? Do you believe Christ Jesus is God incarnate? Can you be saved without believing these things?

"...God our Saviour...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim 3:3-6) "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8) "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

Speaking the Truth in love,
John Henry



[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: John Henry ]

 

Barbarian, Earlier:
It is the nature of a cult to say "God is only with us". This is not something that infects only a few Baptists BTW. There are a few Catholics like that, and they are probably in every Christian denomination.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So, you are saying that one can be saved without believing in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ as Islam and Judaism teach?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. God can save who He will. The Good Thief, for example, merely believed in Jesus, and this work of faith was enough.

Yes, even Muslims and Jews can be saved. Even those who don't know the God of Abraham.

Jesus, in Matthew 25, says that some who are saved will wonder why, asking when they did works that merited salvation. And He will tell them when. Others, he will send away from Him to the place reserved for Satan and his angels, because they did nothing for Him. They did not clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, feed the hungry, and so on. And for this, He condemns them.

Are you saying that one can be saved by their good works as Catholicism, Islam and Judaism teach?

The Bible (James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only."

You might know that Luther argued for removing James from the Bible on the grounds that it contradicted his new doctrine of Sola Fide.

God says "Faith and Works". Man says "faith alone". Not much of a choice.

Do you believe Christ Jesus is God incarnate?

With all my heart.

Can you be saved without believing these things?

Yes. No one has God in a box. He died for all men. Not just for our club. Anyone who calls on him can be saved.

Here's a story I got from a friend in Korea. A young North Korean lived in a place where it was a crime to even talk about Jesus. He knew nothing of him. But he had come to feel that there was something important missing in his life. One day, alone in a field, God touched him. Not knowing what it was, supposing perhaps it was one of the traditional Korean gods, he fell to his knees and submitted himself to this loving creator of all things.

Was he saved?

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: The Barbarian ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

Here's a story I got from a friend in Korea. A young North Korean lived in a place where it was a crime to even talk about Jesus. He knew nothing of him. But he had come to feel that there was something important missing in his life. One day, alone in a field, God touched him. Not knowing what it was, supposing perhaps it was one of the traditional Korean gods, he fell to his knees and submitted himself to this loving creator of all things.
Was he saved?
[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know which god he prayed to? The god of confucianism, Bhuddism, Taoism? Satan can give a false sense of peace too. Jesus plainly said in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the father but by me." You are right in that anyone can come to Christ, whether he be Jew, Muslim, Korean, Hindu or otherwise. But, when he comes, he comes as a guilty sinner, forsaking his own religion of works and embracing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of his life. "Old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." He forsakes his religion and becomes a Christian, a Biblical Christian, having a relationship with Jesus Christ. Christianity, rightly defined is not a religion, but rather a relationship. It is walking in communion with Jesus Christ by faith, once you have received Him as your Saviour on the basis of His atoning sacrifice for your sins.
A Muslim, Hindu, or Jew cannot pray to the same God that a Christian does because they all have rejected Christ as Lord and Saviour of their lives. The God that we pray to is Jesus Christ. He is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. To Him every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
DHK

 

Duplicate post, by mistake.
Please delete.

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: The Barbarian ]

 

How do you know which god he prayed to?

There is only one God. He had no idea that God even existed. But that's no barrier for God. BTW, he managed to go south afterwards, to escape the famine. He discovered Who it was after he reached South Korea. So, was He saved when God first called on him and he accepted Him, or only after he found out all about God?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

It is the nature of a cult to say "God is only with us". This is not something that infects only a few Baptists BTW. There are a few Catholics like that, and they are probably in every Christian denomination.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the nature of a cult (false religion) is to deny 1) the infallible Word of God, 2) the Person of God (i.e. the Deity of Jesus Christ, etc.), and 3) God's simple and fair plan of salvation (Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

Yes. God can save who He will.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For sure God CAN save who He WILL!

"...God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Luke 3:8)

The question is, who does He will to be saved? All, but not against their will! It is His plan that only those who receive, of their own free will, the Lord Jesus Christ as God and Saviour be saved, that is those who commit themselve to His safe keeping. This is a simple and fair plan.

"...[A]s many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. ... Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 1:12, 3:3) "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Pet 1:23) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." (Eph 2:8)

"...He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (2 Tim 1:12) "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8) "... [F]ear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt 10:28)

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Rom 3:23-26) "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim 2:5-6) "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

The Good Thief, for example, merely believed in Jesus, and this work of faith was enough.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Good" Thief? "...[T]here is none good but one, that is, God." (Mark 10:18) The thief on the cross received "the good shepherd" who gave His life for the sheep. (John 10:11) That criminal feared God and realized that he was a lost sinner. He also knew that Jesus was sinless and that He was able to save him. He committed himself to Christ. Note that he rebuked the other criminal that was on the cross who railed against Jesus in these words, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss" and then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." (Luke 23:40:42)

That thief was saved the same way I was and the same way all saved people are saved. There is only one way to be saved!

Speaking the Truth in love,
John Henry



[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: John Henry ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only." ... God says "Faith and Works". Man says "faith alone". Not much of a choice.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saving faith proves itself by good works. That is works that are good according to God's Word. Works are a sign to others since people cannot see into the heart as God can. James 2:24 is God's Word written from man's point of view. Works are an evidence as to one's salvation. A believer can fairly well tell another saved person by their works.

There is no contradiction in Paul's and James' writings. Note:

PAUL:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:8-10) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:17-18)

JAMES:

"Of His own will begat He us with the Word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. ... Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:21-25)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Barbarian:

He died for all men. Not just for our club. Anyone who calls on him can be saved."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is very true. However, one must appropriate the salvation that Christ provided by faith in Him. This faith comes when the Holy Spirit speaks to their heart through His Holy Word, the Bible.

Rightly dividing the Word,
John Henry



[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: John Henry ]

 

The Barbarian, earlier:
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only." ... God says "Faith and Works". Man says "faith alone". Not much of a choice.

Saving faith proves itself by good works. That is works that are good according to God's Word. Works are a sign to others since people cannot see into the heart as God can.

That is why Jesus says that He will chose who goes with Him and who does not, based on our works. As James says, we are justified by works, and not by faith only.

James 2:24 is God's Word written from man's point of view. Works are an evidence as to one's salvation. A believer can fairly well tell another saved person by their works.

Jesus certainly will. Works are what will give you eternal life with Him, if you believe what He says in Matthew.

There is no contradiction in Paul's and James' writings.

Of course not. For a Christian, both faith and works are essential.

Barbarian, Earlier:
Originally posted by The Barbarian:
He died for all men. Not just for our club. Anyone who calls on him can be saved."

--------------------------

That is very true. However, one must appropriate the salvation that Christ provided by faith in Him. This faith comes when the Holy Spirit speaks to their heart through His Holy Word, the Bible.

No. The Good Thief had no Bible. It was sufficient to make an act of faith. This action on his part was sufficient.

 

If you gentlemen would like to open another discussion thread on this sidetreacked subject you are engaged in right now, you may do so. But since this thread has ran it's course, and some, with your kind permission we are hereby closing it. Thank you! Barnabas, BB Administrator