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We really shouldn't even be discussing this topic in this forum as it really needs to be in the CAL/ARM area, but especially since we are having the same discussion on two separate threads...let's just leave it on the one thread.

Yeah, you got me. Your debate skills are overwhelming. :rolleyes: Why would I be seeking to leave a debate with someone who clearly hasn't even come to a point in their study that they understand their opponents perspective well enough to actually engage it?

No, I was explaining that all of Israel was being blinded (NOT DRAWN/ENABLED) to come to Christ while he was here on earth, except for the TWELVE. Israel is being blinded from the truth of who Christ was, thus they were not able to come to him. Jesus says those EXACT words in John 12:39, as...

Inability to do what? See, hear, understand God's revelation so as to turn to him for healing, or something else?

Here is another approach...maybe it will help bring clarity Agreed, but does it teach Universal Inability in light of the truth of the gospel appeal or just Universal Inability for those blinded to the truth of the gospel appeal?

Huh? Not sure how you got that from what I said. Listen, at this point I'm not even wanting to debate you, I'm just wanting you to understand our perspective because it is clear that you don't yet get what I am saying. I'm not meaning that in a negative way, I'm just wanting you to understand...

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that you are not Holy or Righteous? You do believe that you are completely Holy and Righteous through faith in Christ, don't you? Again, I'm just not sure what you are attempting to argue. You seem to be saying that God commands us to be...

Believe in Christ and his perfection (righteousness) covers me. Done. Next. Believe in Christ and His blood makes me Holy. Done. Next. Really? You are? There is no condemnation for those in Christ, so are you saying that you, a believer, is held to account for these? ARe you still under...

No one can come unless they are ENABLED, but tell me what better enabling power is their than the cross and the powerful gospel appeal...which is being hidden from the Jews at that time (because God doesn't want them to be DRAWN/ENABLED until after the cross). How is that point not relevant to...

You keep saying that but without addressing Paul's actual words as presented on several occasions now. Hardening is specifically about inability of men to see, hear, understand and repent and Paul specificially tells us that had the Jews not been blinded/hardened they might have seen and...

Biblicist, We are repeating a lot of our points on the two on going threads, so just for your info I'm limiting my comments to the other thread for the sake of time and clarity...thanks.

Incorrect. My illustration wasn't employed to address the ability of the one doing the recruiting/drawing, but was to illustrate the various potential intentions of the author. Of course God is able to irresistibly draw someone to come to Christ, that is not a matter of debate. The question...

I'm not sure how that explains away the fact that in your system God made a choice to condemn all of mankind to a totally depraved condition as a punishment for the Fall. Is your position that man's condition from birth is not within God's sovereign plan? Please explain. Even if you affirm...

Incorrect. I've responded to your nitpicks of my illustration so as to focus back on the original point, which is that one can speak of being drawn and then raised up in the same manner as one can speak of being recruited and then trained without NECESSARILY implying that those drawn/recruited...

Sounds like you are 'hardened' in your view of the matter just as Israel was hardened in their views. That means you may have lost objectivity when it comes to these matters...and for that matter, maybe I have as well. I used to be Calvinist and I used to believe as you do about this text, and...

I just responded to some of this but wanted to point this out as well... Untrue. For the sake of the illustration I'm fine with supposing that every person who joins must first be recruited. An illustration can suppose anything for the sake of the illustration...that is why it is called an...

1. The principle is not restricted. I agree with you and everyone here that God must draw before one can come...that is true of Israel or all other nations. 2. At that time, however, only Israel was in view because the gospel had yet to be fulfilled (cross/resurrection) and sent to the...

A will preset from birth due to God's choice to condemn all of mankind to a totally depraved condition as a punishment for the Fall. If you punished your child for his rebellious deed by giving him a drug making him unwilling to repent even if you begged him to repent, would you then condemn...

Light is grace...you seem to forget that. God doesn't owe us light. He doesn't owe us the gospel...that is a work of grace in and of itself. For God to produce, preserve and send the gospel to all the world is a gracious intervention of God. These verses you list teach us what men's...

Can you offer a different definition because this definition is based directly from what the scripture says in Acts 28 and elsewhere as explained in the other post? Can I assume you agree with this definition of Total inability? If not, why not? What is wrong with it? And what is...