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Where in that verse does it talk about an extra inward working? We both believe one must be born again in order to enter God's kingdom. We both believe he must be born of the Spirit. This verse says nothing about the means of the gospel through which the Spirit makes his appeal to man, but...

Actually, my argument is that you (Calvinists) have to switch your hermeneutic from hyper individualized in Romans 9 to the Corporate view in Romans 11, but we are consistent throughout. That was my point.

Of course it is. But we are debating the means by which he gives life. I, along with Paul, say the power is in the gospel, which itself is a work of the Holy Spirit. You seem to think its in some extra inward working of the Spirit. John 6:63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh...

You are hyper individualizing the text to draw absurd conclusions, IMO. The point of Romans 9 is summed up by Paul himself when he writes, "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued...

We do know WHY! He told us that he has 'cut off' the Jews or 'sent them a spirit of stupor' so as to make room for the ingrafting of the Gentiles. And in doing so the HOPE of Paul is that the ministry to the Gentiles will provoke the Jews to envy so that they might also turn back and be saved...

Good question Winman. And why would he need to speak in parables to prevent the Jews from repenting unto salvation? (ref. Mark 4; Matt 13 etc) He is temporarily blinding the Jews so as to accomplish the cross and the redemption of the whole world. "...but the Gentiles will listen." (Acts 28:28)

What of those who he hardens but who are provoked to envy and later come to salvation? Romans 11:14 How can the harden ones (who you presume are the non-elect) eventually come to believe in Christ and be grafted back into the tree as Paul teaches in Romans 11?

I agree, but through what means is the man 'made alive?" THE GOSPEL! That is the powerful life giving means. It's not some secret inward moving. It is the GOSPEL!!! The truth will set you free! Just because some CHOOSE to 'trade the clearly revealed truth in for lies' and refuse to accept...

Fine, but they are descriptions that God must have known prior to electing them, right? So, logically speaking, how can they not be seen as conditions? Either God chose people and made them weak, or he chose weak people. ORRRR, people who "humble themselves will be exalted" (ding, ding, ding)

Correct, which is why God sent his Son, the apostles, the Church and his Spirit to make an appeal to all those under wrath to be reconciled. Why do you suppose God would send a message like that and not make it more powerful than the nature of the enemy to whom he is making his appeal? In...

Well, election is not specifically mentioned, but lets take each of the verses you highlighted in turn: Is it foolishness to them because: 1. They deemed it to be foolish by their own free choice, they 'traded the truth in for lies,' and 'refused to love the truth so as to be saved?' (ref Rm...

As Win already pointed out there are various means, but that is beside the point. The point is that we KNOW he does because He tells us so: 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him...

Who, pre tell, is 'by themselves'???? Do they not have God's revelation? Has God not made himself clear to them? Do they not have the gospel? Do they not have the Church? Do they not have the scriptures? Do they not have the Holy Spirit convicting the world of sin???? Do that not have...

A good example of biblical hardening. This is why we are told to dust our feet and move on. My comments are not for you, but for those who actually still have a heart that is willing to learn, but thanks for participating. :thumbsup:

Even John Piper recognizes the TENDENCY of those who call themselves Calvinistic: I like the part about the 'intellectual appeal.'

By the way, the corporate view of election is consistent with the OT view of the election of Israel. The Jews believed all Jews were elected to salvation but they DID not believe all Jews would necessarily be saved. If a Jew refused to be circumcised and follow their laws he would have been...

Absolutely not. Hershel Hobbs and Adrian Rodgers, Baptist leaders who served on the committee to write the Baptist Faith and Message, affirmed OSAS but held to the corporate view of election. Remember that we affirm the effectual work of regeneration just like Calvinists do, we just don't...

I can understand that. I felt the same way about it for years. But also keep in mind that this is the testimony of many when they first here of Calvinism. It is confusing at first and most can't really grasp it or explain it all that well at first. In the same way any "new perspective" takes...

Well, I would like to know what you think about what I've explained thus far in the last two posts. Is it clear or do you have questions? I did just start a thread on the subject, so if you want to pick this discussion up there that would be great...

Two things: 1. Give an honest and fair definition and explanation of what is known as the "corporate view" of election. (NOTE: this is NOT the foresight faith view) 2. Give your opinion as to why you accept or reject this particular view of election. Please be specific. Answers such...