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True. Interesting to me how when one converts to Calvinism they automatically start acting more...well...you know... Maybe its just my bias, but I don't remember her speaking this way to Calvinists back when she wasn't one...maybe its a fruit of Calvinism?

Heir, let's talk sometime! :thumbs: I had reservations about the 'corporate' view as well because I wrongly thought that it didn't involve individuals. I dismissed it, as many Calvinists do here, by saying something like, "Well, nations are made up of individuals, so you really have to accept...

So many contradictions and so little time... :tonofbricks: So, you are saying your theological system would NEVER compare men to gods, and ours would? Ok, so now let's see which system best lines up with scripture: "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' -Ps. 82:6...

You mentioned two reasons, but I think you are missing the third: Freedom. We are free to choose between "X" and "Y" thus proving that God can provide all that is needed to know the 'truth' of "X" but that we can still mistakenly choose "Y." Is that because God failed to provide some of us...

I'm not saying that his words don't apply to us all, for indeed they do. No one, and I mean no one can come to Christ until they are invited. How can they believe in the one whom they have not heard? (ref to Rm. 10) You must be invited to come to the party, right? Well, that is just it...

Hey Bob, why must salvation be irresistible to be considered "of the Lord?" Couldn't something be "of the Lord" but not irresistibly applied? For example, what about your understanding of soteriology? Is that 'of the Lord' or 'of Bob?' If it is 'of the Lord' then why don't all brethren hold...

Yet, who is the one who provided textual support for their views and who didn't? Revealing. Do you really think this is what we believe? REALLY? No wonder you are a Calvinist. I would be too if this is what I believed about non-Calvinists. If you are going to oppose us, fine, but at least...

Great question, and necessary to understand for one to correctly represent this view... Examples: 1. A pilot may predetermine the destination of his airplane without predetermining who will and will not get on his plane. 2. A football coach may predetermine what the condition of his team...

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." Bob, in John 6 Jesus is clearly addressing the people of Israel, who we know are being judicially hardened by God: "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their...

When I first came here I was a 5 point Calvinist (ten years ago). Debates here, along with a lot of personal study, led me away from the overly individualized approach of Western Christianity in it's understanding of predestination and election (i.e. God chose for certain individuals from every...

Amy, I hope you know there is not a non-Calvinist scholar alive, worth his salt, who believes 'men are born good and become a sinner later.' I hope that is not the only reason you adopted the so called DoGs.

Ok, now that I've had my snack, its my turn: B - Bad People but God's Appeal is Stronger than their badness (Rm 1:16) A - Already Elect because God has already elected to draw all men to himself (John 12:32) C - Completely Atoned for because God has completely atoned not only for our sins...

This is weird...this thread has made me too hungry to give a rebuttal. Off to the fridge! :)

One thing many people fail to understand about most non-Calvinistic Baptists, is that we do affirm the effectual power of God's regenerative work, just as the Calvinists do. Faith is the means through which this effectual work is accomplished by the sealing of the Spirit. The difference...

Sorry, got to close this one down, too many infractions. Please keep it clean guys and don't get personal.

NOTE: Just so others know, I am not the one who closed this thread. I try to avoid doing that when I'm the last to post as it tends to aggravate others, and rightly so. JHB, you are welcome to start a new thread on this subject and sorry for the inconvenience.

Are you saying you disagree with the common use of Romans 9 by scholarly Calvinists, or are you just attempting to avoid the issue? The point is that you ignored the argument and you still are... In your system he most certainly does. Tell me what better excuse is their for unbelief than...

I addressed both. You and many Calvinists have often referred to Romans 9 in reference to us being mere clay in the potters hand as a proof text for our 'doing nothing' in the process. The 2 Tim passage clearly addresses that point and you conveniently ignored it. The strongest points of...

Not a big deal, it just took me a while to figure out what you thought I was saying because I was reading casual as causal. :) Chapter and verse?

Right, and I submit that scripture never teaches that God has causally determined the choices of men. That is not casual, but causal, as in caused by God through second or third causes, which IS the most typical view of Calvinistic determinism or compatibilism. It appears the rest of your...