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My supposition has been that the data is not as premill as we would like. Your quote of Ira is a good example who spiritualized the reign of Jesus as the 7th day of creation (fulfillment) and Sabbath rest in which the nations are blessed (thus equating it to Rev. 21-22 and eternity). However...

I think it is quite arguable. The fact that he could spiritualize the 7 days of creation and call the consummated kingdom the 7th day is clear enough to me that his understanding of a literal kingdom (or a literal day or literal Sabbath rest) is not as literal as you would like. So we will...

Thanks for the lesson, but I've already acknowledged that. First of all, Irenaeus alludes to 1 Thess. 4. He doesn't say anything about a rapture along the lines rapture theologians do. He leaves it very general. Likely, he use the word "catching away" as the royal meeting outside the city...

Maybe when the doctrine called "historic premill" was developed into a system post-reformation, then yes. But the very concept of "rapture" is a very late development. There are early church fathers who give statements that accords well w/ premillennialism. I don't deny that. But there is...

There is a maybe... in what the fathers understood about the kingdom reign (i.e. the church) and even the thousand year notion (figurative for a long time). But I don't mind granting that the early church documents that have survived seem to be mostly premill in some form. However, as Dr...

Premill maybe... but rapture was invented much MUCH later.

Your OP is way too long. I have many things to read, and your thoughts are not high on the list when they get that long. Keep it short and to the point. People are more apt to read and respond to what you have to say when it doesn't take too much effort. Free advice that I've learned in...

Well aren't you the most gracious poster on the forum. Are you always this snarky? I hope you have more than this, b/c in this battle of wits, you've clearly come unarmed. The issue w/ the Greek tenses is multifaceted and I'm sure you have no earthly idea about any of it. dJA used jargon and...

Fair enough. The accusation of bias was made by another poster. I just created the poll. I am not sure if the accusation was entirely wrong either.

Here's a poll question. Are the mods and admins biased toward Calvinism (even though not all are Calvies)? Do they give more levity to Calvies than to non-Calvies??? I will admit, when thinking of rule #8, it was not consistently enforced w/ the James White/James Ach thread. Have you...

I'm curious about dJA's whole understanding of the Greek verb tense system. Either way, the context before and after Romans 8:7 makes it pretty clear that it is about an unregenerate person in comparison w/ a regenerate one. I noticed he never dealt with the verses before and after v. 7. He...

Keep it up and rebuke those youth leaders who want to dumb down the gospel and rather throw pizza parties than challenge their teens.

Bingo!!! You are exactly right. I would add, as I pointed out earlier, that "in the flesh" as you mentioned isnnot just defined by v. 9 but also vv. 2-6.

Absolutely!!! You are only scratching the surface here. But now that you have opened the doors to continuity, you are about to see the story of Scripture come to life in a way that it never has before! :D

You are just getting really snarky. Instead of refuting his claims, you just write them off as being fodder for your amusement. A real doctor of theology would have the academic honesty to deal with the refutations leveled against him when HE WAS THE ONE THAT STARTED THE ARGUMENT!!! One more...

We don't always agree, Rev, but this time you and I are in total agreement!

This post is insulting. You accuse me of taking this verse out of context even though I walked through the immediate context of the verse in question. Then, you had the temerity to use language like "clearly shows" and yet you failed to either provide proof for you "clear" assertion or refute...

I don't think you even considered my point. Many of the verses in 6--8 (the ones I listed) compare the regenerate vs the unregenerate person. Therefore, there is bifurcation since there are clear comparisons in this context.

You could also work the context backwards and see that v. 7 is about an unregenerate person. Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. What is a mind set on the flesh? Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the...

Your entire argument hinges on this concept: But I find some problems with that. Many verses compare our past unregenerate experience w/ the present regenerate one. So is this about believers? Yes, but in context it is also a comparison of the believer before salvation. So to flat out say...