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Thank you for the post... I haven't had dialogue between a non Cal like this in... EVER! Oh that we could all extend this kind of grace to each other. Thank you, HoS!

No... I restrict my field of research to NT studies, Greek, OT in the NT, and biblical theology. I'm no systematician. I think I am demonstrating quite ably that my powers of thinking are not so attuned for that field/branch of theology. I'm just trying to ponder out loud and seek the help of...

ordaining sin and creating sin and authoring sin and the ultimate cause of sin. Please focus this thread to this question. Primarily for Calvies God ordained all that came to pass, therefore: (1) in some sense then he is the ultimate cause of sin (whether the remote or proximate cause, if...

Well in your scenario... God is a cause via secondary causation. Illustrations only go so far. Use an issue of morality that would be more comparable.

Im not sure how to interpret your tone here. I'm going to assume the best. To answer your questions... yes God did those things for a reason? Why specifically is not info I'm privy to. But generally speaking we can say for his own divine purposes and to display his grace, love, and...

Let me clarify. I don't mean to say that either confession or those who constructed it are cop outs. I'm just saying that the idea that secondary causation or promixate causation is not a great solution to the problem in my mind. Its like admitting the outcome but without all the moral...

Gal 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, Gal 1:16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;

I am extremely evangelistic, so I would not classify myself as a hypercal. It all depends how we define our terms I guess. I appreciate your heart here. This is lovely. I too have experienced tremendous pain and loss. And God has taught me not to ask why but how... how is God to be...

Thanks for the kind responses btw... What you bring out certainly is where the tension lies. How can this be? Logically, it seems God is the ultimate cause. Morally, how can he be holy?

I've addressed Jms 1:13 already. I'm not talking about God enticing us. I am talking about God ordaining and scripting a world where sin is a necessity. As far as Scripture is concerned, I think there are many passages if taken literally actually teach that God created sin.

I'm sorry... I missed the part where I am not being intellectually honest. I am admitting that the logical result of the doctrines of grace would teach that God preordained sin and thus is the ultimate cause of it. If we apply this logic back to God ("God allowed his people to make their own...

That's is a possible interpretation... but even the hard times and troubles came about b/c of the fall. Therefore, it could still be implied that God is behind it all in some sense.

Are you saying this is one of those mysteries that we cannot fathom? I have a hard time with that considering that many places in Scripture bear out this fact that God brought evil about. See the OP for a couple of examples. Lamentations 3:38 is another good one: Is it not from the mouth of...

Is there a distinction between saying God is the (1) ultimate cause of sin (2) author of sin & (3) the designer or preordainer of sin? If God preordained sin, he basically designed it so to speak and would certainly be the ultimate cause. It would also seem to be synonymous with the concept of...

How about the basic epistemological concept of emotionalism and existentialism defining truth? Could that be included in the list?

Agreed... for the most part that new creation on earth can be consistent w/ many belief systems. However, typically practiced amongst the dispo bretheren is the escapism and a similar gnostic tendency (at least in fundamentalists circles) to look at the bodiless experience of heaven as home...

Hey... I admit I am wrestling with the tension. I am just trying to face it as well. Shall not the judge of the universe do what is right/just (Gen. 18:25)

Actually, the more I think through it, the more I am convinced of the doctrines of grace; even if God is the ultimate cause of sin. Icon... do you see a difference in saying God is the author of sin and God is the ultimate cause of sin??? I am enjoying this dialogue. This is one of those...

No... I don't think so. It is a way to "get God off the hook" and trying to nuance an understanding that makes it ok for God to be the ultimate source of sin without admitting as much. I would rather people simply state what their beliefs in God logically take them to. In this case, God's...

Not really... the more I read, the more I realize I don't know very much at all.