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What confuses this issue is that some don't consider God's 'prevenient' work in sending the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel as either "powerful" or "spiritual" or "sufficient" enough to accomplish its purpose of enabling its hearer to be reconciled to God. Tell me, what is more powerful...

Of course not, which is why I spent all that time explaining what I thought the intent of the author was in my last post. :confused: You actually quoted two different versus and the second was from Paul, nevertheless they were both dealing with the same issue in that day (though Paul was...

Winman, if they had the word "yall" this wouldn't be an issue because then the word 'you' wouldn't be thought of in a singular/individual sense. We must remember that 'you' is the plural form of the pronoun too, so the question is whether Paul means "God hath from the beginning chosen {each of...

I don't deny that fact, but I don't believe that is the point Paul is attempting to make in those proof texts in question. What is Peter speaking of being foreknown? The individuals who believe? Is that what the text says? No. It says "elect according to the foreknowledge..." Here is what...

You misunderstood...I wasn't equating the point regarding 'looking down the corridors of time'. I was equating the individualization aspect. Both of these views assume election is about God preselecting individuals and I don't believe that is Paul's intent. Hopefully that clarifies things...

No, I'm arguing that it begs the question to assume divine sovereignty must be defined as Calvinistic determinism defines it. That is the point up for debate after all. I personally believe He is SO VERY SOVEREIGN that He is able to accomplish His ultimate purposes and plans without having...

What have I ever said that you lead you to this conclusion? Was it when I talked about my brother and my best friend being Calvinistic and how I loved them, worshipped with them and went on mission with them? Was it when I defended Calvin as a theological genius? Was it when I corrected...

What error? Name it. Quote it. Do something that actually constitutes a real argument and then maybe I can rebut it. General unfounded accusations amount to NOTHING. See, you say on the one hand that I'm making a statement of error about Calvinism (without actually telling us what that...

It doesn't appear you read his statement, or maybe you misunderstood it? You are making election about God picking individuals and you argue with him as if he is saying God picks foreseen believing individuals. I don't believe that is correct. Election is not about preselecting individuals...

Arminians believe God enables people to accept the gospel, just as Calvinists do, but just not by irresistible means. Thus, those enabled to accept also can still reject.

The Arminian View: It begins, as before, with Paul agonizing over the failure of Israel to come to faith in Christ (vv. 1-5). He has to confront the Jewish objection that, if his gospel were correct, it would mean that God’s promises to the Jews had failed. His response is that God’s...

The Calvinistic View: Paul begins by agonizing over the failure of Israel to come to salvation through faith in Christ (9:1-5). Paul’s solution is that not all of Israel is Israel; i.e., not all of Israel is elect (v. 6). Paul demonstrates God’s prerogative to elect whomever...

Was that Luke's mom? jk :love2:

:applause::thumbs::applause: I love this...absolutely love it.

To be fair, they might be. I know some very evangelistic Calvinists.... :)

:thumbs::thumbs: The bad thing about an online forum is that you can't have a beer and a cigar with each other to take the 'edge' and 'tone' out of the debate. It is natural when discussing theological differences to get a bit testy, but it is especially the case when done only through...

I think you mean "confounded" or "convoluted," for they are indeed profound. :)

So, you believe the defense of, "Satan made me do it?" is valid? Wouldn't that make Satan sovereign according to your view of sovereignty? I see you are unwilling to just come out a acknowledge that your view teaches God is the ultimate cause for the choices of man in each and every...

Bro, you were asking about the views of the NON-Calvinist, so of course we are going to believe this claim is false, otherwise we would be Calvinists, right? That was my point. That is the unify agreement of NON-CALs. Now, this begs the question by presuming: God being sovereign = Calvinistic...

I don't know if anyone took the time to read THIS article you posted Quantum, but it is worth the time... :thumbsup: http://www.schooleyfiles.com/2006/08/new-perspective-and-ephesians.html