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:applause: This is the achilles heel of Calvinism. It gives the perfect excuse for unbelief.

With regard to this passage I agree with John Calvin when he wrote, "Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain...

I know what some Calvinists argue about being "able but not willing" which is why I specifically said, "born unable to willingly believe." That is an accurate a representation of Calvinism.

True. The man was a genius and a scholar...just not always right.

Non-sequitor. There is nothing in scripture telling us that Christ analogy is equal to that of Paul's in a completely different context. In light of Paul's explicit teaching regarding one being grafted back in again and even your own admission that Paul is addressing 'natural Israel' and not...

Well, in my experience the phrase "difference without distinction" doesn't necessarily mean there is NO difference between the two words, but that people often treat each word without a distinction. For example, Job treated God as the "cause" the evil but we know from the first chapter that He...

Yes, he chose Paul for the noble purpose of apostleship, while leaving his fellow Pharisees in their hardened, cut off, stumbling condition, but have they (the fellow countrymen that he dearly loves) stumbled beyond recovery? NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! They may be provoked to envy by the Gentiles...

If you wrongly make the tree represent salvation by which men lose it by being 'cut off' of it, or saved again by be 'grafted back in again' then you create this dilemma. My interpretation has no such dilemma, because I rightly understand the tree to represent the "gospel church," the gracious...

Let's break this down. You say that Paul means "natural Israel" (meaning Jews according to the flesh) hasn't stumbled beyond recovery. And in the past you have argued along with the rest of Calvinists that nations are made up of individuals: So we have two types of these "natural Israelites"...

Meaning you need to have been properly indoctrinated by the right crowd. :laugh: :1_grouphug: No, clearly he is talking about "the rest who are hardened" which is why he refers to their stumbling. You ignored my questions, btw. I asked about why you are addressing nations and not individuals...

Ahhh, so now you want to make this about nations not individuals anymore? I thought nations were made up of individuals? So, if the elect never "stumbled" and those who stumble can never recover, then how does this verse make any sense whatsoever? Let's read it together again: "The...

Yeah, heaven forbid you actually take the time to understand our perspective through looking objectively at comparisons. It must be much easier for you to just continue to misrepresent us and attack, right? :rolleyes: Correct. "That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have...

Yes, it does mean "chosen," and as I explained, ALL JEWS were considered to be CHOSEN/ELECT until the "mystery of the gospel was made known." In other words they were known to be INVITED TO THE BANQUET (recruited if you will), through the special revelation sent uniquely to them. Now, all are...

Actually, on this subject, I agree with John Calvin, who wrote, . . . the Lord had declared that "everything that he had made . . . was exceedingly good" [Gen. 1:31]. Whence, then comes this wickedness to man, that he should fall away from his God? Lest we should think it comes from creation...

No. Do you call all those who an Army recruiter attempted to recruit a "recruit?" No. Now, are there those who God chose to invite to his banquet who will be in hell? Yes. See the parable of the banquet.

:thumbsup: Exactly, those who believe men are born unable to willingly believe because of God's choice actually exalt the view of man by giving them a really good excuse for their unbelief. In our view, they are free to believe because God has giving them everything they need to understand and...

No, as I've explained the term was used for years in reference to all Jews, as they were known to be the people who God chose to send his revelation. The mystery of the gospel was that God had, from the beginning, chose to make the appeal to all men of all nations to be saved by grace through...

How about we address the subject of the OP regarding which "camp" actually exalts the view of man? Is it the view which teaches men are born unable to willingly believe and thus have a excuse for why they don't believe (much like the insanity defense described in the OP), or those who are born...

Ok, let's presume that is the case. Now, if that is the case, tell me why Paul would say that those who have stumbled have not stumbled beyond recovery? Do you understand? For the sake of this argument, I'm conceding that the elect are those who are justified, and that the non-elect are...

Again, you are reading your perspective into the text. I was talking to an Army recruiter the other day and asked him what he was doing this week. He said that was taking his recruits this week up to the base to start their training. Now, should I presume that those "recruits" going with...