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I should have pointed this out in the first response, but notice this answer actually does not address my question. I asked why Paul talks about their not stumbling beyond recovery if indeed all those who have stumbled can't recover. All you did was restate your unfounded premise that the...

You mean verse 7... And I referred to that verse before, because if your following the next several verses Paul continues talking about "the rest" who were blinded. And speaking of them he asks the question, "have they stumbled beyond recovery?" We KNOW this is about those who are...

With all due respect, the question is for Aaron. No offense but I'd like to pick up where we left off without muddying the water too much with other's views.. Thanks.

Thank you. Very kind of you to say so. :thumbs:

If what you believe is true, and those who have "stumbled" (been hardened/cut off) cannot recover, be grafted back in or in any way saved, then why did Paul say, "Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the...

I can't speak for DHK, but I've explained NUMEROUS times that the gospel IS A work of divine GRACE in and of itself. The Holy Spirit wrought it, preserved it, and carries it to all the world. The gospel IS GOD'S MEANS OF GRACE because it is the "power of God unto salvation," by which God makes...

I agree. And I do acknowledge that Calvinists claim men are responsible. However, I do take issue with that claim in light of their overall position. To be "responsible" connotes the idea of being "response - able" (being able to respond), and the doctrine of Total Inability appears to remove...

Many? Really? I've yet to hear of just one.

I didn't exclude it...just didn't address it. Not every aspect of the doctrine must be addressed for the point to be made. In the Calvinistic system, God declared that the punishment for all mankind due to the fall was for every man to be born totally unable to do anything except reject God's...

Well, I'd be glad to discuss any aspect of that with you if you have specific questions. Meanwhile there are many good commentaries to read if your interested. Adam Clarke's commentary is a good place to start.

That is like asking, "What determined an undetermined choice?" Satan determined it. What causes an act? The actor. What causes a sin? The sinner. What determines a choice? The chooser. To speculate as to what determined that actor to act, sinner to sin, or chooser to choose presumes a...

In general, I would agree, but really it depends on what you mean by "control." If I want my daughter to sit down when I ask her to sit down and she chooses not to sit down does that make me less strong? Could I not physically force her to sit thus "controlling" her? Sure I could, but if I...

Actually, they are not... I give up. :wavey:

I agree, but then again that might depend on what you mean by "active." I don't think either of us would believe God is actively causing sinners to want to sin, right? This is where drawing the distinction between God's permissive and decretive will is needed. No, I just draw a clear...

What you seem to not fully understand or recognize is that Libertarians don't deny that God does at times throughout history intervened to effectuate His desired outcome. And that He may do so through causally determined means such as a Compatabilist might describe (i.e. the use of appointed...

JF, sorry, please go back and edit the quotes in your post to correctly reflect what words belong to you and me and then I can reply...

Looks like I was right about not expecting an answer to this question anytime soon...

When you say "no control over" do you mean that He couldn't have prevented or changed that choice if He so chose, because that is not what the 'Arminian' believes. Just checking for clarity...

12strings, Can you define what you mean by "free will?" Compatibilistic Calvinists affirm a concept of "freedom" that is much different than that of the libertarian.