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It is very common to hear the accusation from Calvinists that the non-Calvinistic view of man is exalting, or in some way makes mankind "better" than they really are. But may I suggest and make the case that the opposite is actually true: Consider the "insanity defense" in our judicial system...

JF, did you read the verse? What else could that passage possible mean? Why else would Paul contrast the Jews who have "grown calloused" and the Gentiles "who will listen?" Can you deal with the text? If Paul believed that Israel and the Gentiles were in the same inherent state from birth...

I agree and who are those who don't have ears to hear at the time Christ was here on earth? Hint, read Acts 28:21-28. Especially look at verse 28 and notice the difference in those who have GROWN calloused to God's revelation and those who are just now receiving it. In summary, it says the...

What is revealing is that you took the time to reply to Quantum's post but not this one or anyone that directly addresses your errors. Just go back through this thread and pick out the arguments and questions that Aaron ignored and it will once again prove what I've often said, "The strongest...

I'm not sure how this answer relates to my question?

Can you show me where you ever said that being cut off from the tree represented, "the Gospel being removed from them, and they without the means of grace and salvation." Or "[God] inflicted due punishment upon the Jews, unchurched them, and stripped them of those privileges they enjoyed in a...

You are not following along Aaron. He is supporting a Calvinistic rendering, yes, but not the same one you appear to be supporting. He is saying they are being cut off from the revelation of the gospel...the "the means of grace and salvation," whereas you appear to say that they are cut off...

On this point we certainly agree, but for those following along, notice the one who is quoting directly from the text in support for his views versus the one saying the exact opposite. Paul says: "some of the branches have been broken off." I believe: "some of the branches have been broken...

And yet I'm the only one quoting the actual texts in which Paul clearly says they were cut off and can be grafted back in, while you provide nothing but your own conjecture. A premise nonetheless supported even by some respected Calvinistic scholars. You do a great injustice to the text to...

So I guess Paul had heat stroke when he wrote: "After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!" Are you just...

If you read the entire context it is made perfectly clear that he is asking about "the rest who have been hardened" (vs. 7). He is asking "Have they stumbled beyond recovery?" Plus, what sense does it make to ask if the elect, natural branches, who haven't been hardened or "cut off" have...

Aaron, can you answer this question, please?

Yes, when you understand that the tree represents the means of salvation and not salvation itself, it makes perfect logical sense. A branch may be cut off (grow hardened and then become blinded to the truth) due to unbelief, but be grafted back in and saved if they don't persist in that...

You honestly can't see the difference in: (1) Paul's 3 chapter long explanation of the cutting off/hardening of the Jews, the reserving of the chosen remnant of Israel and the ingrafting of the Gentiles through the message of the apostles. AND... (2) John's single line of hyperbole? {A...

On this point I also wanted to add: Too often here on the BB I hear Calvinistic believers argue against the view that God indeed does love all people and desires for all to be saved. This is not the view of scripture or even many classical "Calvinistic" scholars. Consider the quotes from...

What a martyr you are! :laugh: Ok, so you are saying that Paul makes the argument that the hardened Jews 'haven't stumbled beyond recovery' but 'may be provoked to envy and saved' 'if they don't persist in unbelief'....they, being 'natural branches,' may 'be grafted back' into the tree...and...

P4T and Aaron, with all due respect, you two don't seem to be saying the same thing. P4T, seems to be saying, "He still does speak unto His own today," while Aaron is saying that He said everything that needed to be said through Christ as recorded in scriptures? Is that not accurate? Please...

I predict you won't actually answer these questions, but here it goes anyway: 1. Explain why Paul would speak of God's ability to do something He would never actually do? What is his point? Is he just bragging on God's abilities or something? 2. Why does it speak of the man's ability to...

Quite the contrary. Pharaoh is the foreshadow or type in history of Israel. He was rebellious and didn't want to let the Jews go, God sealed him in that rebellion keeping him blinded from the clear revelation of God through the plagues. Why? To accomplish the Passover. So too, Israel...