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Sorry! I don't believe that's Owen - it's you - and unless you give me chapter and verse to prove it's Owen, I'm not commenting on it. And for the record, I did NOT object to the use of the word "humanity." I object to discussing YOUR definition of PSA when there are plenty of others to...

Your problem, @JonC, is that this is what the Bible actually teaches. 'We all like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, into his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' That is what God has done to reconcile us to HImself. If you think He should have done...

Come on, Jon! You really don't have to misunderstand everything I say! I don't have any objection to the word "humanity." It's in the Pierced for our Transgressions definition for Pete's sake! All I said was that I didn't think Owen would use it because it's a modern word. Owen would have...

Accepted. Is this John Owen's definition or yours? If Owen's, can you point me to it, please? I find it strange that Owen would use the word 'humanity.'

FYI, Mike Ovey (1958-2017), who was Pincipal of Oak Hill Theological Seminary, was indeed an Anglican for most of his life, but at the time of his death, I understand thatt he was attending a Baptist church. https://faithroot.com/2022/01/07/mike-ovey/...

Mike Ovey, Steve Jeffery and Andrew Sach.

Deut. 27:26. ''Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law. And all the people shall say, "Amen!" James 2:10. 'For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.' See also Gal. 3:10-14.

You are correct, but we should be able to agree about Penal Substitution while disagreeing about the extent of the atonement :) Wesleyans certainly used to believe in PSA while being staunch Arminians. I'm not sure they believe in anything much these days, but there we go.

Where exactly have I asserted that Owen did not hold PSA? Having said that, I maintain the right to disagree with him. He was a man just as we are, and men can make errors. I have Death of Death in the Death of Christ on my bookshelf (Banner of Truth paperback version), though I haven't read...

"God gave himself in the person of his Son to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the punishment for sin” - from Pierced for our Transgressions. I don't know how you would deny that this definition speaks of the Lord Jesus suffering instead of us the...

First of all, thank you for listing seven definitions of the doctrine of Penal Substitution. I was struck by the substantial unity of the definitions. Herein lies the problem. Presumably because you cannot find fault with those definitions, you have created your own definition just so that...

The first Baptist confession of faith appeared in London in 1644, and was revised two years later. Religious tolerance was all but unknown in those days, and these early Baptists come under suspicion of being connected to the Anabaptists who had caused mayhem in the German city of Munster. The...

You didn't quote them; you linked them and I don't read links unless I can escape from their cookies. One was a critique of the book Pierced for our Trangressions, in which the author of the critique failed to reference the definition of Penal Substitution given by the authors whom he was...

[Quick stop in sermon-writing for cup of tea] With respect, I think you do. 'Surety' or 'Guarantor' has a certain meaning in Scripture which is not identical to the definition you have given. And with respect again, in a previous thread, you used the word "guarantee" which I suggested was not...

My definition of "Biblical" is that it is in the Bible.

I'm glad you have brought up the subject of Christ as "surety" and also that you have accepted my use of the word "guarantor." At some point I will start a new thread on what a 'surety' is, based on Hebrews 7:20-28, and also the O.T. uses in Genesis and Proverbs. But I have no time to write...

I am glad you agree with me. It makes all those threads about ECFs look rather silly, doesn't it? PSA is found very clearly in Scripture ("what is written"), in Romans 3:25-26 and in Isaiah 53. The Bible does not use the words "Penal Substitution" any more than it uses "Trinity" or "Supra- or...

We are just going round and round. The blood of Christ (Heb. 9:22), shed upon the cross, does indeed cleanse us from all unrighteousness - but we are not therefore perfectly righteous and still need to confess our sins (1 John 1:7-2:2). The reason that we are so cleansed is that the Lord Jesus...

PSA is both Scriptural and historical and you have not shown otherwise. That the doctrine was not called "Penal Substitutionary Atonement" in ancient times does not mean that the doctrine itself was not understood and acknowledged by the ECFs. I have posted extracts from various church fathers...

I am absolutely certain, without a shadow of a doubt that PSA did exist prior to Calvin and Luther, and on this very thread I have produced evidence to prove it. PSA is entirely Scriptural, and historical.